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Sarah
Member
Posts: 439

How do you know, other than a blood test, that the anti's have worked?

 

My girl was on metro from march to June and tylosin since the beginning of June.

 

ALSO-I give the tylosin powder with a spoonful of yogurt (mostly because she loves yogurt). I realize that the good benefits of the yogurt will be nulled by the tylosin, but does giving her tylosin with yogurt alter the effects of the tylosin?

August 8, 2009 at 9:43 AM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 13034

Hi Sara,


The tylosin will destroy the good bacteria in the yogurt... but the effects of the tylosin will be just fine.


 if i understand it correctly, there is no other "positive" way to test for SIBO other than the blood test.... BUT....not everyone is tested for it....but rather, some vets will automatically prescribe Tylosin (most prefer it over metronidazole) automatically when a dog is diagnosed with EPI to treat SIBO since it so often does accompany EPI. (This personally happened with my vet and I understand some others do the same). Anyway... to answer your question.....I do not think you have to necessarily test again to make sure the SIBO is gone... i think most of us just watch the poo quality... if it is good for many, many days... i think many of us use that as the judgement call.


I do have a question for you... how come your girl has been on antibiotics for such a long duration..........Is she one of those dogs that has had repeated problems with SIBO???  If so, then it might warrant a SIBO re-test to check... but that would really be your personal choice.


Another thing... once you deal with SIBO (and keep a journal :wink: you start to recognize the signs if it has returned..... The expert on SIBO here is Karen.


My dog HATED the Tylosin.... i had to make a little pocket for it in a blob of cream cheese- -tuck the Tylan in it (wash my hands cause that stuff is so nasty it gets on everything and makes it taste very bitter!) pinch the cream cheese pocket as if it was a little piece of ravioli.. and serve... that is the only way my dogs will take it   ........





--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She was getting Annamaet Lean kibble plus a lean meat and did well on it....... but we have since switched again because of her diabetes to an all home-made diet which she does even better on and has even been able to reduce the Vetsulin (por-based insulin) dose from 9 units to 6 units... because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia- -she is much more even keeled with a diet of sweet potato+ a lean meat+coconut oil/fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


August 8, 2009 at 11:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Karen
Member
Posts: 1829

Hi Sarah and O.  Unfortunately, I'm not the pro here, but I have gone thru it non stop since dx, probably since before dx, so I am good at the signs, etc.

 

There are other tests, if I am not mistaken.  Breath something or other and also I think they can take the juices from the stomach and test, but that is expensive and invasive.  I don't think there is any test that is 100%.  Sometimes the dogs, such as in Hondo's case, the last time tested, can have normal-low folate levels, yet it is still at play where anti's can't be stopped.  Low cobalamin (B12) alone can also be indicative of it. Something about the maldigestion going on and the bacteria clinging to the cobalamin which lowers both the b12 and the folate test results.    Deb Z can explain it really well.  I have been to one site  that explained it well, yet cannot get into it anymore.  It did state that just the low B12 can be indicative of SIBO as well as low b12 and high folate. It is hard for me to explain.  But it does have to all do w/ the malabsorption if that is present, hence why we use the L-Glutamine trying to heal the intestines/stomach.  So maybe, maybe one day we can stop this vicious cycle.

 

That being said, on signs alone, if you don't have any signs for over 30 days, there is a chance you can stop the anti.  And that is 30 days straight, some are waiting closer to 45.  Not one bad poop in that time, not even the slightest bit soft.  No burping, licking, smacking lips, yellow stools, gas, etc.  All signs are gone for 30-45 days straight.  One little blip, then you start the count over again.  That didn't work for us.  We did great, stopped the anti, started back up again, normally it's w/in 3 days, last time it was 1 week.  So that, too, is not definate.  For some, yes, for us, no.

 

A lot of dogs, w/ any type of malabsorption, are on long term anti's.  It can be any type of malabsorption.  IBD, EPI, SIBO, etc.  There are others that do just fine w/o them.  As is always said, ea dog is different.

 

Hope I helped just a little bit?

 

 

--
Karen & Jaime-Lyn
DOB 3/31/11
cTLI 7/9/13 3.0  10/19/13 2.4
EPI, low B12, SLO
Raw Fed
-----------------------------
Always in my heart
My Angel Hondo
EPI, IBD, SIBO, PLE, Weekly B12 injections
Raw Fed
7/19/04-5/22/13
August 8, 2009 at 11:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Sarah
Member
Posts: 439

Hi Olesia and Karen,

 

Thanks for getting back to me. :0)

 

I knew that the yogurt would not be beneficial but it's good to know that the tylosin will still work on the SIBO. :0) Thanks.

 

When, Sister, my epier started losing weight and having diarrhea was in early March. The vet I went to at the time assumed it was Giardia. So she was put on Metro and bland diet after bland diet. The vet didn't think I was feeding her properly. At the time I was feeding her raw. Towards the end of April she was still having diarrhea and still losing weight (down to 63 from 75). At this point I decided to take her to OSU teaching hospital. They diagnosed her with EPI at the beginning of May. So we continued with the Metro. In June She was still having diarrhea (The viokase dosage was insanely too low and I was told to give as a pill instead of crushing) so we switched to tylosin. At first we were on liquid tylosin and since mid july we have been on powder. she has  acouple weeks left of the powder. So ...that's why she has been on anti's for as long as she has.

 

Karen i've read about the other tests and i agree they are too invasive and too expensive. My vet says he can't do the blood tests...even after I've repeatedly said all he has to do is take the blood and send it to A&M.But that's another gripe...i mean story. :0)

 

I was thinking since she has been on them so long that surely something was at least better! However, she still burps after eating (which could be a result of inhaling her food) and she is also as of lately been very very gassy to the point that I sit around and hold my breath!

 

Since i've started grinding her food, upped her enzymes, and incubate her food her stools have been solid. However, the inside of them is an odd orange/tanish color. The outer part is brown.

 

So I guess it sounds like she still has SIBO. Right?

August 8, 2009 at 3:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Sarah
Member
Posts: 439

I just wanted to mention that for the last two weeks or so i've been adding L-Glut to her morning and evening meal. 1tsp per meal. :0)

August 8, 2009 at 3:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Karen
Member
Posts: 1829

:)  You answered your own question.  I'd like to hear the other long story.  I don't understand why, if you want the test, you can't have them done.  Has the B12 been tested?  That, too, can slow things down.  My thought on this, mind you it's a thought, if the signs are coming back, ie the gas ( and I hear ya there, we are getting gassed out since last nite), burping, I wonder if the tylan is not working, it's a different bacteria.  Different anti's affect different bacteria.  The formed stools are a great sign, though, that you are making progress!  My vet seems to be more concerned w/ the shape of the stool, ie formed v unformed, instead of the color.  I go by all the signs, including the color, that seems one of the first things to change.  Onward we trudge thru this.

--
Karen & Jaime-Lyn
DOB 3/31/11
cTLI 7/9/13 3.0  10/19/13 2.4
EPI, low B12, SLO
Raw Fed
-----------------------------
Always in my heart
My Angel Hondo
EPI, IBD, SIBO, PLE, Weekly B12 injections
Raw Fed
7/19/04-5/22/13
August 8, 2009 at 3:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 4186

Sarah at 03:00PM on Aug 08, 2009

Hi Olesia and Karen,

 

Thanks for getting back to me. :0)

 

I knew that the yogurt would not be beneficial but it's good to know that the tylosin will still work on the SIBO. :0) Thanks.

 

When, Sister, my epier started losing weight and having diarrhea was in early March. The vet I went to at the time assumed it was Giardia. So she was put on Metro and bland diet after bland diet. The vet didn't think I was feeding her properly. At the time I was feeding her raw. Towards the end of April she was still having diarrhea and still losing weight (down to 63 from 75). At this point I decided to take her to OSU teaching hospital. They diagnosed her with EPI at the beginning of May. So we continued with the Metro. In June She was still having diarrhea (The viokase dosage was insanely too low and I was told to give as a pill instead of crushing) so we switched to tylosin. At first we were on liquid tylosin and since mid july we have been on powder. she has  acouple weeks left of the powder. So ...that's why she has been on anti's for as long as she has.

 

Karen i've read about the other tests and i agree they are too invasive and too expensive. My vet says he can't do the blood tests...even after I've repeatedly said all he has to do is take the blood and send it to A&M.But that's another gripe...i mean story. :0)

 

I was thinking since she has been on them so long that surely something was at least better! However, she still burps after eating (which could be a result of inhaling her food) and she is also as of lately been very very gassy to the point that I sit around and hold my breath!

 

Since i've started grinding her food, upped her enzymes, and incubate her food her stools have been solid. However, the inside of them is an odd orange/tanish color. The outer part is brown.

 

So I guess it sounds like she still has SIBO. Right?

Hi Sarah,

 

I'm one of the few that found a my dog got relief from the burbs,while still treating for SIBO and for a while after that with the help of acid reflux meds.  We tried Prilosec, Pepcid AC and finally settled on Tagamet (with my vets blessing). 

 

I never tested again for SIBO, just figured I knew I had it licked when the symtoms stopped, but I'm fully aware it could raise it's ugly head again... Knocking LOUDLY on wood here as it's been a few years! :tongue:

 

I'm not sure if you're still feeding raw and something in the back of my mind is telling me that the global list thought this was a bad idea for raw fed dogs because of ??? (drawing a serious blank here). I'm sure someone will chime in with the reason.

 

Donna

August 8, 2009 at 5:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Debra
Member
Posts: 1528

Hi All,

I also read something about feeding raw food.  It went into the history of the dog and the wolf and how we've changed their diet over the years.  The train of thought was being EPI dogs are very susceptible to baterial infections and if the raw food was contaminated in any way, whereas a 'normal' dog may be able to overcome this, an EPI dog may not. Cooking the meat at the correct temperature would render any bacteria harmless, however there are many owners who can give very positive results on feeding raw and there are owners who have food issues with cooked or dry kibble....vicious circle again.

 

Debra and Bonnie

 

--

Owned mind, body and soul by a German Shepherd called Bonnie.

Forever in my heart  

6th September 2007 - 23rd September 2009

x Forever grateful I found this forum x

 

Bridie (9 year old Lurcher) Cassie (2 year old Bichon Frise)
August 10, 2009 at 6:16 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Sarah
Member
Posts: 439

I was giving pepcid, but I stopped because it nuetralizes stomach acid and make a better environment for the SIBO to grow...I also thought for some reason that it fed the bacteria...

 

Am I correct in this thinking?

 

 

I also read some where the slippery elm will help with the reflux...?

August 10, 2009 at 7:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Debra
Member
Posts: 1528

Hi karen,

I think you were thinking of Breath hydrogen testing10 for an alternative way to test for SIBO....

 

Hydrogen can only be produced by bacteria, but not by mammalian cells. After oral application of a sugar solution (e.g., glucose, lactulose, or xylose) bacteria in the intestinal lumen metabolize these sugars and release hydrogen. Some of the hydrogen diffuses through the mucosa and into the blood stream. Hydrogen gets carried into the lungs and is expired. Expired gases can be collected using a cone, a nonrebreathing valve, and a special collection bag. The sample can be analyzed with a breath hydrogen analyzer. Under normal conditions most of the carbohydrates get absorbed in the small intestine and do not reach the intestinal bacterial flora, mostly located in the colon. However, in dogs with SIBO there is a large bacterial load in the proximal intestine, which metabolizes the carbohydrates and produces hydrogen, leading to an early peak of hydrogen concentration in the expiratory air. In contrast, in animals with malabsorption the carbohydrates reach the bacteria in the large intestine and a late peak of hydrogen concentration in the expiratory air is observed. Hydrogen breath testing can be performed in conjunction with gastrointestinal permeability and mucosal function testing as the same sugars can be utilized for both tests. Finally, by using a non-metabolizable carbohydrate, oro-colonic transit time can be calculated. Breath samples are extremely stable in glass tubes and can be safely shipped.

 

Has anyone actually had this done? I don't think we have the facility here.  I wonder if it works as it would be another less invasive way of diagnosing.

 

Sarah - Slippery Elm rocks!!:D  Works well for Bonnie.  My non EPI doglet had a very serious stomach virus over Easter, had to be hospitalised and put on drugs and a drip. WHen she came home I gave her this during the day.

 

Debra and Bonnie

 

--

Owned mind, body and soul by a German Shepherd called Bonnie.

Forever in my heart  

6th September 2007 - 23rd September 2009

x Forever grateful I found this forum x

 

Bridie (9 year old Lurcher) Cassie (2 year old Bichon Frise)
August 11, 2009 at 8:36 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Sarah
Member
Posts: 439

Hey Debra,

 

So slippery elm works well for reflux? Is it something I need to incubate and how much/how often to i give it to her?

August 11, 2009 at 1:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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