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Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Hello Everyone,

Please excuse the length of my email... Our two year old mutt has EPI and we recently discovered it about 6 months ago. After numerous steps, vet sent off blood work to A&M and they confirmed, EPI. It has been a long journey but we finally found something to keep him stable. Now I'm in the process of trying to make small changes, one at a time.

1. Expense - why in the heck is this stuff so expensive? Is it cheap to make and just supply & demand and whoever makes it, is making a killing? That then leads me to ask about enzymediane.com. I work very hard for my money and don't just like to give it away freely. Whoever is behind that site, how are they making that product and is this a very lucrative business for anyone selling this stuff as it doesn't cost much to make but you get to charge hundreds for it? I can’t help but think I’m in the wrong line of work as you could get wealthy selling enzymes… ;)

Can you ever give them too much enzymes?

Has anyone ever come across this webpage/video? http://products.mercola.com/healthypets/digestive-enzymes-for-pet/ She sounds like she knows her stuff!! I tried to grasp most of what she was trying to say without it going over my head. Of course, they are selling their own product, cheaper than everything else out there, but has less USP of those ingredients, however, it has other stuff in it. Have they figured out a formula that works better than just putting a bunch of the three ingredients in it? I’m just trying to prevent myself from spending a college degree over the life of my dog.

The pharma brand enzymes say to store the product at room temp and make it sound like it is really important. Everyone just ships it through the mail, so is it a big deal if the product is transported in temps outside of that range for a short period of time?

My vet answers my questions, but avoided this one, maybe they don't know. I used to give my dog Hartz Dentists best dental chews, as they help with their teeth. Do any of you give your dog these kind of things without issue? We have cut out all treats, but was hoping these would still be ok. It isn't an everyday kind of thing.

Curtis

 

 

 


March 13, 2017 at 10:49 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Deb
Member
Posts: 1577

"a very lucrative business for anyone selling this stuff as it doesn't cost much to make but you get to charge hundreds for it?"

Where's the info from about how much it costs to make? Does that include shipping, packaging, distribution, meeting tax laws and regulations?

I can answer your whoever is behind it question. Diane started the business with her own blood, sweat, tears and money.She had her own epi dog years ago before everything was neatly laid out in a website and had to research and find her own way through. I believe she also works very hard for her money too and put in all the effort to bring the enzymes in at a more affordable price for owners. While all the time volunteering her time to help rescues, both epi and non epi and raising awareness of epi to hundreds if not thousands of vets and owners in her own time. Last time I checked selling enzymes hasn't made her a multimillionaire. Dr Mercola on the other hand?

All of your answers can be answered on her site and she will also speak to you by phone or email.

The mercola link is for a supplement, not a replacement so isn't potent enough for an epi dog which is why it is much cheaper. And I'm pretty sure Mercola run their company at a pretty healthy profit margin, so gives an idea of how cheap the ingredients would have to be even allowing for the larger volume of production.

As I say Dianes site can answer most if not all of your questions and she can tackle any others.

1. Storage of product and giving too much enzyme

http://www.enzymediane.com/faq.htm

2. Expenses

http://www.enzymediane.com/coststomanageepi.htm


3. Enzyme comparison

http://www.enzymediane.com/enzymecomparisonchart.htm

4. And why she remains so passionate about helping other epi dogs

http://www.enzymediane.com/sargenthortonshistory.htm

%. Any further questions about her product

http://www.enzymediane.com/contactinformation.htm

March 13, 2017 at 4:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2483

Hello Curtis and welcome to you.....  I will try and answer some of your questions and address your concerns. First, the Mercola enzymes. Mercola is a wonderful company, I've used several of their products for my pups and have always been very satisfied.  The enzymes they sell are, however, plant based. That is why you see such a variance in price and strength. The enzymes needed for an EPI patient (human or pet) are best if they are animal based. The prescription enzymes you purchase from your vet or on line with a prescription (or without) all have the company's logo, therefore they are more expensive. What Diane sells are generic enzymes (pancreatin), which she buys wholesale, packages and sells for a reduced price. Since she doesn't actually make the enzyme, she is at the mercy of the actual manufacturer as far as the pricing goes, but yes, you can see the mark up between her pricing and that of the others.  As for the shipping and storage, extreme heat will damage the enzymes.  Before we switched to Diane's enzymes, we purchased Viokase from our vet, and it was always shipped there for us to pick up from them. Since I live in south Texas, enzymes left in the mailbox is not a good thing in August. I know Diane offers a shipping option with ice if necessary, and I believe other companies offer shipping options as well. Having dealt with this condition for (going on) 7 years with my pup, I have to tell you that I can't say enough good things about Diane and her enzymes, but it is totally up to you. If you find a product that works well for your pup, then go for it. 

As for the dental chews, the only thing I recommend is to make sure your pup is stable. That way if you try the chews and things go south, you'll know exactly why. We are able to give tiny treats to Butter without a problem, but they must be only certain things and we had to wait quite some time before we could even try. 

I hope this helps you a bit. If you have any questions about Diane's enzymes and I haven't answered well enough, you can certainly call her and ask. Her phone number is on her website. 

Susan


--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 13, 2017 at 4:30 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 741

Hi Curtis and welcome.

I will give you some background as I lived thru it. American labs (producer of Diane's enzymes) is a wholesaler of product, not a retailer. They are not prepared to be a retailer as they simply don't have the sales force to do so...in order for them to sell small quantities they had, at one time, charged  much much higher prices than are currently offered and then finally said, they couldn't handle it and  refused to sell anymore retail product.  This is where Diane came in, offered up her own $$ out of pocket for the love and caring of theor dogs to start a retail sales business.. iMHO, her prices are reasonable, her customer service top notch and her ethics are impeccable! 

Shes not "making a killing" and I also "work very hard for my money". The cost of her enzymes vs prescription enzymes (have you checked out the price of Viokase from Ft Dodge?) is clearly a savings. Agian, JMHO

Donna

March 13, 2017 at 8:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Thanks everyone for the replies. That's the info I was looking for. I gather this disease isn't too common so pharma drugs may just be a supply & demand kind of thing... I have also said I'm not one of those people that will go spend $5-10K on a surgery to fix a pet. Well, jokes on me.

Are Mercola enzymes really plant based? That's funny as that video on their site talks about you needing animal or a mixture of them. I started to think theirs isn't for EPI as it doesn't mention EPI. Would you all however, agree with the knowledge & info that page gives out? Sounds logical and helpful to me, as general info.

Susan, I live in Dallas area, so when you order yours, do you just do Priority mail and only order on Monday or Tuesday? Do you ever do Express or buy the ice? That really gets up there in price.

Curtis


March 13, 2017 at 10:05 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2761
I don't know about the enzymes you're talking about other than they aren't strong enough to treat EPI. What I can tell you is that EnzymeDiane's enzymes literally saved my dog's life because they are the proper strength to treat EPI and cost 1/3 less than prescription enzymes from the vet and have been working correctly for my dog for the last two years. I thank God every day for EnzymeDiane and EPI4DOGS!!
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 13, 2017 at 10:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Administrator
Posts: 7227

Good morning Curtis from the UK


Firstly, EPI is more common than you might think, its just not recognised ,diagnosed, and treated quickly enough, and the animal dies of "starvation" or has to be PTS, 


my vets saw at least one a day in the 80's, and then, when the cTLI test was invented by my vets friend, and colleague, Dr David Williams, diagnosis became definitive, still didnt stop mis diagnosis though


Now we have the internet, and a lot of support groups, and massive information 


USA is lucky to have someone like Diane who discounts the replacement enzymes necessary to treat EPI successfully, Unfortunately, until recently we havent had this luxury in UK, and enzymes over here were ridiculous, and Aus still doesn't,they rely on Creon, a human drug


when we started over here in 2010, there was basically one company, and in the first year Kara's enzymes cost £5.000  (bp) in todays costings would be $6.500 ish US dollars   


i have watched and listened to the broadcast you have linked and not once does it mention EPI, it is interesting, but not for EPI owners


EPI is not a food intollerance, its a failure of the pancreas to produce the digestive enzymes to process food, like insulin diabetes it needs replacing by synthetic methods, the pancreas has therefore ceased to be a functioning organ, and this is not reversable


the level of enzymes required to process and digest food


are here


http://www.epi4dogs.com/enzyme.htm


the levels in Dr Mercolas enzymes are here


http://shop.mercola.com/product/271/1/healthy-pets-digestive-enzymes-5-26-oz-1-container


as you can see they are not strong enough


the one thing I would repeat if its not here is to never give anything other than water and medication without enzymes


FOOD IN ENZYME IN


and keep a journal, as in anything you treat the whole body


regards


Jean UK Admin


  


--



 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


Adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

Enzymes-Panzym 3 gram per meal twice daily ( 3/4 teaspoon ) 

B12 injection once every three weeks

One Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

One Antepsin before bedtime

Allergies to beef, pork, chicken. and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

37 kilos as of 10th June 2014

40.65 kilos, 89.6 pounds as of 3rd March 2015

Vet says she is now processing her food correctly

Very proud of all of us


 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"


I am not a vet, nor have veterinary experience, but have lived and breathed EPI for 51/2 years, and hope I can bring some support to others, as others have to me.

 

 

 





our favourite man Uncle Ian

March 14, 2017 at 4:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Deb
Member
Posts: 1577

Lucky Boy at March 13, 2017 at 10:05 PM

Thanks everyone for the replies. That's the info I was looking for. I gather this disease isn't too common so pharma drugs may just be a supply & demand kind of thing... I have also said I'm not one of those people that will go spend $5-10K on a surgery to fix a pet. Well, jokes on me.

Are Mercola enzymes really plant based? That's funny as that video on their site talks about you needing animal or a mixture of them. I started to think theirs isn't for EPI as it doesn't mention EPI. Would you all however, agree with the knowledge & info that page gives out? Sounds logical and helpful to me, as general info.

Susan, I live in Dallas area, so when you order yours, do you just do Priority mail and only order on Monday or Tuesday? Do you ever do Express or buy the ice? That really gets up there in price.

Curtis


"I gather this disease isn't too common so pharma drugs may just be a supply & demand kind of thing... I have also said I'm not one of those people that will go spend $5-10K on a surgery to fix a pet. Well, jokes on me."

What exactly is your point? What answer are you looking for? If it is a supply and demand thing? So what?  An epi dog will die without enzyme replacement. That's not supply and demand - that's life and death. You need the enzyme replacement, (not supplement), regardless of cost. That's why it's great Diane has been able to bring them in at an affordable price. Mercola isn't potent enough for an epi dog. Why persist with analysing and arguing for their info?

Are you looking to rehome the dog rather than pay the costs involved in maintaining an epi dog? if so, just be honest and upfront. You've said you're not the type of person willing to spend thousands on a dog. That's fine.  No one will judge anyone if they can't or won't meet the costs involved. In fact the exact opposite so if you want to email the details to the site owner she and Diane can help advertising for a new home if that's how you're leaning.

Are Mercola enzymes really plant based?

Well, where is the protease coming from other than papaya?

Between the quick guide and Dianes enzyme comparison and expense chart you can see the cornerstones of treatment you need to meet and the costs involved and whether you want to follow that or not.

http://www.epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guides

You stated your dog has been stable but you haven't mentioned b12 or whether antibiotics were used to get your dog stable. You said you found "something" to get your dog stable. What is the one something? Concentrate on getting the 4 cornerstones of the protocol in place as referred here with the latest research and endorsed by the "American Vet Assoc" and less time arguing for a mild "supplement" product that isn't even mentioned by the manufacturer as having anything to do with epi. Kind of off putting too that Googles predictive text brings up quack as the 3rd most popular search for Dr Mercola, so why not go with the AVA endorsed recommendations as set out in the quick guide here  and the highly recommended enzymes from Diane at the most affordable price. You can check the advanced search box for Dianes enzymes if you want to read more about their success and efficacy from lots of owners over many years. 

March 14, 2017 at 5:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2483

Curtis, yes, the mercola enzymesa re plant based, and are only supplemental. They are made to assist in digestion, not replace the job of the pancreas. I try to place my order with Diane over the weekend so that they are shipped out in Monday. I get them by the end of the week and I don't worry about express mail until the heat of summer. Even then, I have rarely used the express option. 

Unfortunately, even with the addition of the TLI test, this condition continues to be misdiagnosed. It is becoming increasingly more common, as evidenced by the amount of new members we see here and on the other sites. It once was basically confined to the GSD, but now I believe we have every breed represented. There is currently research going on that will hopefully shed some light in what exactly is going on. As Deb has mentioned, we recommend sticking to the four cornerstones of treatment to get you pup stable. Everything we suggest is based on the latest data from the vet's and researchers, so that's why the AVMA named us the go to spot for all things EPI. Let us know if you're having any problems and we'll be happy to help you out, but if your pup is stable, you're doing a great job. 

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 14, 2017 at 7:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2483

You know what Curtis, I was wrong. One of Mercola's digestive enzymes does include porcine based pancreatic. I apologize. Even tho it is porcine based, the numbers are not strong enough to be considered a replacement enzyme. 

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Myles'mom
Member
Posts: 21
We tried Mercola before our pup got his EPI dx. Worked for about a month (weight gain, more energy, etc). We thought we had found the cure for whatever was wrong with him. But, as everyone else has said, it's not strong enough. He began lo. sing weight again...we were at a loss. I understand your concern regarding cost of keeping your dog healthy, but it honestly isn't as bad as you might think. We spend about $50 every 6 weeks on a good grain free dog food, enzymediane enzymes are about $150 every 4-6 months(depending on how much food you are feeding your dog), and B12 is inexpensive...so, that's less than $100 month. There are other foods out there that may be less expensive, but once you find something that works, you tend to stay with it. I didn't notice if anyone addressed the "small changes, one at a time" statement, but you really need to address all 4 cornerstones - enzymes, diet, B12 & antibiotics for SID if needed - all at the same time. We are all on this journey together, so feel free to ask as many questions as you need!
--
5/2/17 Weight :35 lbs Eating TOTW High Prairie, 1 cup twice daily


Update 2/27/17 :Current weight 33lbs. Eating TOTW High Prairie...Currently 3 cups daily, would like 2-3 more lbs before giving recommended amount. Probiotic Miracle 363 grams daily (1 scoop) Metamucil as needed.

Aussie/Beagle Myles 1 yr 10 mos  diagnosed 1/14/17 after dealing with symptoms approx 4 mos. 

Normal weight 36lbs current weight 23.5lbs, update 1/27/17 27 lbs! Woohoo!

TLI Less than 1.0, Folate 6.6, Cobalamin Less than 150

B12 started 1/10, giving weekly for 6 weeks. Started Pancreatin 6x  1/19/17, Currently eating California Naturals Chicken & Rice Formula (2.5% Fiber)...transitioning to TOTW High Prairie. Currently feeding 50/50, and going well.(1/27/17)

Melanie



March 14, 2017 at 4:51 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 741

Hi Curtis,

IMO, this isn't a big pharma, nor supply and demand issue, but rather a fact of life thing... Sometimes your dealt a difficult hand of cards and you make decisions based on what you can and cannot do. As Deb said, if you cannot do it, contact Diane, any administrator on this forum, or a reputable rescue.  They will help. This forum is about education on EPI and I think it's done an outstanding job of that! If you can do it, please take the advice you receive and decipher it yourself as to what's valuable and what's not.

I find it odd that you're taking a video of Mercola products, clearly a business method to sell product (which is just fine as its how products are sold) at face value, while you are questioning folks that have used product successfully for years, volunteer their time here as we love and want to see these special pups live normal and happy lives...

Donna

March 14, 2017 at 6:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16569

Hi Curtis and welcome to our EPI family.

As you have probably gathered by now..... Mercola enzymes are not the right enzymes for EPI dogs.

I personally use EnzymeDiane's 6x pancreatin enzymes... have been doing so for 9 years now and am very pleased.  And just as a little FYI .... EnzymeDiane's product has been written about in Veterinarian Medical Journals as a viable alternative to brand name enzymes ;)

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 15, 2017 at 12:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Thanks for the replies everyone, I will try to respond to everyone's comments, pardon me if I miss something.

Regarding the fincnical comment, I was just talking. I had some dogs growing up, but never as an adult until my wife came along. I would hear of stories of people saying their dog got sick, ran over by a car, etc and needed some major surgery that cost me like $5,000, etc. At some point, everyone has to decide when it is best to allow their pet to move on as you wouldn't spend the same money on your dog as you would your child, etc. So I have always said I wouldn't be the person that would do that, spend that kind of money fixing up a dog if they were hit by a truck, etc. I was just talking outloud as the joke is on me now as I will be spending a lot more than that on my dog during his lifetime for EPI meds, if you stick with the pharma brand prices. Some kind of crazy surgery might be easier to say no. But I can't give my dog up because of this, I just have to suck it up and that's why I was saying jokes on me. I love our dogs...

When you are new to this, everything is overwhelming. There is a lot to learn, so me brining up Mercola is simply because I don't know as much yet and still trying to get all of this figured out. Plus, I know the Internet is full of good and bad advice and when you read or find something, first thought is this info legit.

I know this industry isn't regulated by the FDA, so looking at this from a general consumer perspective, thoughts come to mind. Why is this product so much cheaper than all the others. Is it safe, how is it made, etc. Since it isn't regulated by the FDA, can any company claim any USP so there might be a difference in quality from this product over that one. With that in mind, that's why I asked about Dianes. Hearing that she isn't making the stuff but is actually made by a lab and she's simply the online retailer told me exactly what I wanted to know. I have no idea how this medicine is made and how costly it is to make. I was simply saying I could see it being a supply & demand if it is cheap to make and why the pharma drugs are so expensive. If it is cheap to make and lots of demand, competition will keep it down. That's all.

Trying not to let this all fly over myhead, I asked my bet about b12 and SID. A&M is the lab that diagnoised it. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert so I can't quote what they said, but right now, didn't seem like that was an issue. We tried a lot of things since this all started, I have learned a lot in the process and my vet seems pretty knowledge about this topic. I think there is so much more info here that my vet my not know and that's understanable as they don't have the time to become an expert on one diease when they see all sorts of issues on a daily bases so I'm trying to pick up the slack.

He's finally had pretty good solid poop for weeks now, the best since this all started. Now I have to make small changes, one at a time and slowly see where it goes from there. Canidae food, enzymes and tylosin. He's been on tylosin since the start. He was on some other med awhile back, not sure if that was an antiboitic or not, after he came home from the pet resort and it was completely runny, which we thought we had it down before we left. I'm starting to think we really didn't. So this is all so new right now and still trying to figure out what is going to work and what not. I'm curious to find out if boarding him will ever be an option because of the stress, he has no personal space and compeltely attached to us, if it is, what do we do exactly so we can board him, etc. I know all of it will be a trial and error.

Right now, I'm working on getting him over to Diane's enzymes, see how that does for 4-6 weeks, then maybe tried a different kind of food with more fat or take out tylosin and then do the other once that is a go, etc.

If it wasn't for this site and all the info on it, I would be screwed right now...

Curtis


March 16, 2017 at 9:26 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2761

Hey Curtis - yes EPI is overwhelming in the beginning but does quickly become the new normal.  I noticed in your recent post you are not supplementing B12 - please know that EPI dogs aren't able to maintain their B12 without supplementing and need their B12 on the higher side of normal 600+.  There's information about B12 above that you can share with your vet.  You have to have the four cornerstones of EPI (enzymes, B12, antibiotics if needed and food) in place in order to see optimal results and get your dog stable.  A lot of us get B12 pills from WonderLab - they're called PetFactor and is extremely inexpensive.

madelon

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 16, 2017 at 12:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 741

Hi Curtis,

Im very happy to hear that you are willing to take this on! I agree, in the beginning this is a lot to absorb, and no, most vets don't know a lot about this condition as they only see a couple of (diagnosed) cases in their lifetime practicing medicine...

Diane herself had an EPI dog, knew how hard this was financially for those of us that did, thus started her retail business to help us.  I am VERY protective of her as I know how many dog's lives she's saved... When I got my first bottle of Viokase V from the vet, my jaw hit the floor and I immediately started crunching numbers in my head and thought, I didn't know how I could pull this off...With Diane's enzymes, we were able to just give up dining at a restaurant a couple times a month to afford them vs remortgaging the house! LOL

If you can post the results here, we can help you interpreted them. As Madelon said, low normal B12 isn't normal in an EPI dog...

Boarding usually isn't a problem, if the kennel is willing to work with you... I'm one of thos crazy dog people that vacation with my dogs ;), but on those rare occasions I did have to board, it was never an issue.

Donna

March 16, 2017 at 6:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2483

Hey Curtis....  it's okay. We have all dealt with the confusion, fear, anger, all of it. My dog was 6 when she was diagnosed. She was sick. Very, very sick and it took a small fortune to get her well again. Now, she's got other things going on that make the EPI a breeze. This group has worked for a long time to get prices down and the right products recommended. Olesia, the site owner and president of the foundation, has worked with so many vets, scientists, researchers and has come up with a foundation that is par none. We don't, and won't, recommend something unless it's backed by research or has worked repeatedly with owners. I will echo what Madelon has said, the b12 is extremely important and EPI pups do better with a high normal number, 600 or better. Check your paperwork or with your vet to make sure the scores are high enough to forego supplementation. We are here to answer your questions and if necessary, be your sounding board. Just warn us.....  lol

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 16, 2017 at 6:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Thank you! This all started sometime before Thanksgiving and I didn't come across this site until a month or two ago. I don't have the actual results and numbers from the blood work from A&M, my vet just said he has EPI. I briefly brought up B-12 and she said they were fine when we tested him last yr when we found out he had EPI. So I was trying to get him stable and after being stable for a few months and feel like everything is under control, then tackle on the b-12 or see if he even needs it by having him tested.

 

I am now getting the impression he will need b-12 supplements to get stable? Do I just give him b-12 or must we test him to see where he is at and how much to give? I tried reading the b-12 page and it's hard to follow all the advice. I'm not sure if I should do the shots or go with the pills. If I do the shots, do I just get the serum from my vet and is it expensive? Do you have to have him tested for b-12 first and how often afterwords? Isn’t this test expensive? I hate going to the vet as it seems like the bill gets out of hand every time I go...

March 20, 2017 at 7:07 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2483

Ask your vet what the numbers for the b12 were. It is recommended that the numbers be 600 or more, so print out the b12 information and take it with you to the vet to discuss. The injections are a good place to start. They usually bring the numbers up really well, them if necessary a lot of us use the capsules for maintenance. Butter does a combination of both because she just can't hold her b12 at all. If you decide to use the oral, they need to be a product with intrinsic factor in them. The vast majority of us in the US use the Wonderlabs trinfac-b or their pet factor b12. But whatever you use, look for the intrinsic factor. Be advised, the injections and the orals are two different types of b12, and one might work better than the other.....  As with most things EPI, it just depends on the dog. 

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 20, 2017 at 7:41 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Thanks Susan! I'm asking the vet. I don't like the idea of having to give him shots. Is just giving him those pills to start a great first step and very good chance of success with those? The b-12 page says that the current protocol is shots but appears that may be changing and pills is working great for most dogs.

March 20, 2017 at 9:13 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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