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Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2965
Curtis - the recommended protocol is shots but the pills work for about 85% of us (if I remember the percentage right). My vet at dx didn't think B12 needed supplementing as Doc's was 406 but after reading the research here I knew it was critical for it to be higher so I ordered the pills and let my vet know what I was doing. So if you can't do shots you can try the pills but please share with your vet and I highly recommend getting the B12 tested before so you have a starting number and then retest after a month or two. Madelon
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 20, 2017 at 10:26 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17057

Hi there.... yes, you can start with Wonderlabs "PetFactor B12" pills... although we, as an organization tend to recommend doing the shots first simply because that is the "proper" protocol set-forth by Texas A&M Gastro lab.... HOWEVER, that being said, theses special B12 pills appear to work over 90% of the time... and we know this not because any clinical trial has been done  but rather by many, many individual EPI dogs who had their B12 levels tested prior to startng the Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 pills (or Wonderlabs Trinfac: same stuff) and then their B12 was retested via blood test after being on the Wonderlabs B12 product and in almost every single case the B12 levels after being on the Wonderlabs speical b12 pills was greatly improved and at good solid levels anywhere from the 600's to 1,000. 


Unfortunately too many vets will assume that the EPI dog's B12 levels are okay if the Cobalamin test results come back and gthe dog tests out in normal.... Normal or low normal is NOT good enough.... these dog's B12 will slip.... what the B12 level needs to be is somewhere in the upper mid range of normal... which would put it at about upper 500's to somewhere in the 600's.  Over 80% of all EPI dogs when 1st diagnosed do not have sufficient B12 stores... 


The great thing about B12 is that it is a water soluble vitamin, so you don't have to worry about over-dosing.  However, on the flip side, it is never a good practice to give too much of anything.  What we suggest, is to give 1 capsule daily to med-lg size dogs (small dog should only get 1/2 capsule) .....however... if you want to go by theactual recommended dose... giving the pills have the same dosing instructions as does giving the serum.  On the B12 page it lists how much B12 ( which corresponds with giving either Cyanocobalamin or Methylcobalamin B12 1000mcg).


Everyone uses their own judgement with how much B12 to give their dogs.... i personally like the method of giving one capsule every day for about 3 weeks to a month.  and then to "try" backing off to about 1 capsule 3 days a week... and see if the dog continues to do well.  usually this works for dogs that do not have a major problem with B12. (i have a med size waer dog)


However... many of the GSDs do have noticible issues with B12 and do require 1 capsule daily ongoing.  Here is the links to WOnderlabs two products that work on our dogs: (you will hve to copy the link and paste in your browers, our forum no longer supports https links)

https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

https://www.wonderlabs.com/newshowitems.php?search=trinfac

.


hope this helps!

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 20, 2017 at 11:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Thank you so much! I've seen the admin videos on how to do it, a piece of cake, so I'm waiting to hear back from my vet about getting his b12 tested and then start doing those injections myself. Then migrate to the pills down the road. Is it expensive to get b12 levels tested all the time?

March 20, 2017 at 1:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2965
I think my vet charged and Kind $120. I've only had it t tested twice - once at diagnosis and then after 5mos of supplementing. I won't re-test unless I notice a problem
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 20, 2017 at 5:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

He was diagnoised last fall, should I bother with with pre-test before supplementing?

March 20, 2017 at 5:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17057

the proper thing is to do the B12 blood test (cobalamin blood test) first not only will it tell you if your dog needs B12 - -even thou it most likely will.... but it will also give you a benchmark... so you know what you are dealing with.


However... some don't test because of the cost,  my gues is that it is now anywhere between $120-220.... dependng on where you live.... and just start doing the B12 because over 80% of these dogs need it and if they don't, they'll just pee it out, but if they do need it it makes a world of difference.......

However

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 20, 2017 at 7:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 922

I just got a B12 draw tonight and IDEXX was $106.

I also didn't give Molly the entire series of injections because she's not good with shots... I gave her the first 4, but then switched to Wonderlabs... I'll get the results tomorrow and let you know.

Donna

March 20, 2017 at 7:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

Epi4Dogs at March 20, 2017 at 7:35 PM

the proper thing is to do the B12 blood test (cobalamin blood test) first not only will it tell you if your dog needs B12 - -even thou it most likely will.... but it will also give you a benchmark... so you know what you are dealing with.


However... some don't test because of the cost,  my gues is that it is now anywhere between $120-220.... dependng on where you live.... and just start doing the B12 because over 80% of these dogs need it and if they don't, they'll just pee it out, but if they do need it it makes a world of difference.......

However

I heard back from the vet since they didn't give me the numbers of his A&M test results, just told me he has EPI. She said it was under 600 and this was back in November when they diagnosed him. So I assume it can't be any higher and problably lower by now, so does it make sense to test him now or just start giving it to him and test him in 6 months to see where he is at as that is what will matter.

Curtis


March 20, 2017 at 7:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2500

If it were me, I'd test the b12 to have a number now. You can compare them to what the numbers were at time of diagnosis and see how much it's dropped. Like Olesia said, you'll have a benchmark. 

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


March 20, 2017 at 8:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lucky Boy
Member
Posts: 19

My vet said she doesn't have the chart with her but believes it was around 300ish... Sounds like there is a lot of room for improvement, getting the injections from the vet for now, then online.

March 20, 2017 at 9:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marilyn Marinelli
Member
Posts: 811

Hi Curtis,  I have been reading through your thread.   I will share with you info about what I did with my dog. 

Very simple ....when she had the shots her B12 level went up and down.  Good at the beginning of the week and down the end of the week.  This was not working out at all.  Then my vet said no more shots and never addressed the B12 anymore. SO I did research here and decided to do the B12 with intrinsic factor from www.wonderlab.com  the cost is low around $17.00 for a bottle they deliver very fast and the pills last with  my dog about 2 months.  I give her 2 a day one at each meal.  I just put it in her bowl with her food and she just takes it down.  I have been doing this with her for 6 years. 

I had her level check before I started her on the capsules of B12 and then two more times to see how she was doing.  Her level went up 600+ I haven't tested her since.  She is doing well.

NOW ...why B12 with intrinsic factor...... because  

Intrinsic factor binds to B12 when it reaches the stomach following exposure to gastric juices. Bound with intrinsic factor, B12 will survive the journey through the stomach and reach the small intestine. Once there, intrinsic factor dissolves, releasing B12 to bind with another protein, transcobalamin II, for transit through the epithelial cells and into the bloodstream and on to the liver.

Simply put, B12 with intrinsic factor helps with the body to digest the food........

I know everything seems overwhelming ... however, once the food is right, the right B12 is high, etc. it will become just routine and not big deal. I would say sometimes being in a stressful situation can cause loose stool. Stay focused

I hope some of what I shared with you will  help make things go more smooth for you and your dog.    


 

    

   

March 21, 2017 at 12:28 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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