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Forum Home > General Discussion > 10 year old Cocker diagnosed in January still struggling

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Hello, my Cocker was diagnosed in January with small intestinal malabsorption. She had chronic diarrhea issues for several months at that time and been seen by her regular vet. She tested positive for Lyme disease (most of my dogs do--epidemic in my area) and was treated with Convenia and then amoxicillian. The diarrhea seemed to increase the second week and I worried the antibiotics were wiping her system. With the vet's guidance I supplemented her Canida diet (she was weaned on it) with Pro-Tren Dairy Free Trenev Trio probiotics.

It didn't help. During this time her energy level was normal (high) and appetite and drinking was aggressive. She was spayed  with a mammary chain removal and she healed fast and well. The stool issue was still a problem (looking at the Poop chart--4 and 5). I also began to see a wasting around her hips and her hair coat losing condition. Losing hair. I thought it was from the dramatic surgery she'd undergone.

Still eating aggressively but in January she stopped eating and had explosive, watery diarrhea. We'd been into her regular vet the day before we landed in the ER vet clinic on a Saturday. From 2 pm to 10:30 pm we were there and they ran tests, xrays and ultrasounds. We left with two (Baytril and Flagyl) antibiotics, anti-nausea meds, and prednisone,  She stabilized and had a stool close to No. 3 by Friday, then we were rechecked on Saturday at the ER clinic, bloodwork that had previously shown the low protein risk was a bit better, and everything else looked okay (where the week before the ER vet called it a "hot mess". The day earlier her vet saw some concern but nothing screaming. That was before she started vomiting and all.

The results of the malabsorption tests came back that suggested problems there (done at Texas A&M) and possible pancreas involvment. Could be lymphoma--but nothing suggests that yet. The ER vet prescribed Royal Canine Low Fat 1 1/3 c 2x a day. I moved her to the new diet and everything fell apart. Thursday night she was moaning and I took her back to the ER vet where after looking at her, he recommended euthanisia. I asked them to give her something for pain to hold her until morning when I could take her to my vet to let her go.

By  morning she looked better. I took her in and though I told them it was to let her go, I decided on the ride over ask for help to keep her alive. She trotted into the clinic and barked at one dog going in. Her regular vet listened to my story and felt she was game to go on. Her normal weight is around 18 pounds (she's a petite bitch) and she was under 15 at that time. I don't know what she weighs now but she is very thin. Scary thin.

IBD does run in the lines. Her great grandmother was put down at 7 for it and perhaps there was EPI too but her owner and vet at that time decided she had cancer without diagnostics. My dog's dam lived to be nearly 15 and her dam recovered from a stroke and lived to be nearly 16. These were descendents of the 7 year old. A littermate to the granddam, a neutered male, lived to be nearly 16 and suffered from IBD. He was let go due to failing heart.

The regular vet presribed a bland diet of potato and chicken, valium (5 mg 2x a day) and prednisone (7.5 mg 2 x a day). I make her one of boiled sweet potatoes, white potatoes and roasted fresh turkey breast. 1/2 c. protein, heaping 1/2 c. sweet potatoes, and a 1/4 c. white potatoes. The diet is based on one used for a second cousin only she ate tiliapia and sweet potatoes (2 c. 2x a day). She did not have EPI and responded to the diet alone.

My dog stablized and her stool improved at times to nearly formed and occasionally formed though not normal. No weight gain and anything she does hold is lost in bouts of 4 and 5. The ER vet also prescribed Vit B injections, but my vet thought it was for appetite, not healing and she isn't getting them now.

Earlier this month I was reading about EPI and thought it might be worth a try to add the enzymes. Her doctor wasn't sold but felt it wouldn't hurt her. I got the PanaKare Plus so at least she would get some vitamins in addition to the bland diet. (Though evreything seems a mess, the hair she has is glossy and her skin improved--it was very dry and it isn't now--3 weeks after the start of the supplement). The dosage was 1 tsp for each five pounds. I started at 2 tsp on 1 1/2 c. of bland diet. and it messed with her. Frightened to lose what I had, I dropped to 1 tsp per directions on the bottle, and she stabilized--whether her gut did or the reduction helped, I don't know. After two weeks I increased the dose to 1 1/4 tsp looking for more consistent stools and when that didn't happen, I thought perhaps the therapeutic dose was what he prescribed and tried to incrase it to 1 1/2 tsp. Nope. Increased stool more 5 than 4. Just as she was holding something, she lost it. Several days of diarrhea has left her weakend though she sparkles at meal time and at other times. Alert barks at the mail delivery. 

So here I am. I know it can take time to heal the pancreas and small intestins, but from what I'm reading here and other places, we should see better stool. I'm a little lost what to consider next. This is the most complicated condition I've encountered in a life time of dog ownership. Thanks for reading.

March 31, 2017 at 9:07 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Looking at the chart again I mean 6 and 7 are most common.

March 31, 2017 at 9:47 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

ahhh... you and your little gal have certainly been thru the wringer.  As i was reading your post..... IBD/PLE kept rattling around in my head, and of course, then i got to the family history where IBD is prevalent as is Lymphangiectasia.  


If i understnad your post correctly, our gal has not been confirmed with EPI.  So the following are based solely on what i read and am guessing at.

1. Sounds like this most likely is IBD or PLE that is going into the remission stage maybe?  

2. Usually "watery" stools is much more indicative of  IBD like conditions vs. EPI conditions.

3. the limited amount of enzymes may have helped, as sometimes we actually do see dogs (some cases, not all) with small distal proximal disease = this is a malabsorption disease and usually is IBD ) where a little enzymes actually help- -but why this happens in some cases, i have no idea.. just an observation that it has been reported that it does helps some of these dogs.

4. Just a FYI.... enzyme dosing can be a fine line of just enough, not enough or too much. Too much or too little has been reported to cause loose stools in EPI dogs.... not sure if it can happen in non-EPI dogs, but i suspect yes.

5. With any gastro intestinal condition, the more recent take away is that they usually do need B12 supplementation or else they will never get optimally better... and yes B12 does help with appetite, but that is a nice unintended consequence, not the bottom line for giving B12.  Because it should not hurt, my suggestion would be to talk to your vet about giving B12 injection (not the complex B12, but rather the cyanocobalamin B12 simple serum)... or.... ask your vet if they would be fine with your giving your pup "Wonderlabs brand "Trinfac B12"  https:/www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881  or "Pet Factor B12"   https:/www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 (same stuff)... many, many MANY of us use this product and have seen dramatic postive response via before and after Cobalamin Blood tests.   Give 1/2 capsule daily. These capsules have 1000mcg Methycobalamin B12, 800 mcg of Folate and INtrinsic Factor included (and this is why we suspect it works so well on our EPI dogs where as regular B12 pills over the counter don't seem to work.

6. Next....what you also might want to try is get some slippery elm loose powder.. Give your gal 1/2 level tsp tossed in with the food and be sure to add 1-2 tablespoons of water (this is a mucilage and a prebiotic) SE will know for working on patients with IBD (and many of our EPI patients use it to)  It is safe to use, cheap and works... the only negative with it is if your dog has elm tree allergies,,, then it will have loos stools or itchies to this because of the allergic reaction. Otherwise it should almost immediately and safely cease the terrible loose stools.  https:/www.bulkherbstore.com/slippery-elm-bark-powder-wild-crafted-1-2-lb  or you can buy (from Amazon. com, the NOW product .  If you want look up Slippery Elm for IBD and you will see a TON of articles... if you read research, where they have tested mutliple herbs on IBD patients.... slippery elm is one of just a very few that they have results of it actually workin on patients (humans) however want to further investigate.  It is also  widely used with dogs and cats .

Next.... no matter what is going on with your little gal.... if you schedule permits... try feeding smaller portions but feeding in more meals... maybe 3???


And last but not least... if all the above doesn't help.... then ask your vet if you can "try" a small bag of Royal Canin "Ultamino" true hydrolyzed food... there are now only 4 real hydrolyzed foods on the market, they are all prescription foods, but each works differently and what we used to suggest is that people try each one until they find whcih one works best for their pet.  Ultamino is a new food and (just our pbservation) but it appears to have a better response with our EPi dogs that have both EPI + IBD.... than the other hydrolyzed versions.



Please be sure to share with your vet everything we suggest to you.  Your little one sounds like she has the will to pull thru and if possible we will help you as best we can :)


--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 31, 2017 at 11:42 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

jsut refreshing so that abov post shows.........

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 31, 2017 at 12:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2938

Welcome to the Group.  Goodness you and your little one have had a rough time of it - she is very lucky to have such a dedicated mom!!  I don't have any suggestions as my knowledge is limited to EPI so I just wanted to welcome you.  I hope you are able to get some answers soon - I know how scary it is when our fur babies are sick.  Hugs

Madelon


--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 31, 2017 at 1:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Administrator
Posts: 7356

welcome from the UK


Jeanxxxx

--



 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


Adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

Enzymes-Panzym 3 gram per meal twice daily ( 3/4 teaspoon ) 

B12 injection once every three weeks

One Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

One Antepsin before bedtime

Allergies to beef, pork, chicken. and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

37 kilos as of 10th June 2014

40.65 kilos, 89.6 pounds as of 3rd March 2015

Vet says she is now processing her food correctly

Very proud of all of us

 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"


I am not a vet, nor have veterinary experience, but have lived and breathed EPI for 51/2 years, and hope I can bring some support to others, as others have to me.

 

March 31, 2017 at 2:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Thank you so much. I am to pick up a refill of the PanaKare Plus tomorrow and will ask about the B vitamins I can feed her, and the Slippery Elm. I sure can feed her three times a day. We have been on an 8 hour regime since January (pills and feeding) and if she eats a 12 am and 12 pm and I can feed her at 7 am and push the noon feeding to 1:30. That leaves her with time to go potty before bedtime. She has been sleeping next to my bed since she fell ill so I know when she's moving about instead of resting. 

The ER vet sent me home with the B vitamins in January. They gave her the first injection there and then she was to have another two weeks later that she didn't get because my vet didn't feel it was necessary. Maybe I'll take her and B vitamins with me tomorrow morning because if it is still good (assuming it is) one of the vet techs can give it to her. But I will ask about the oral.

So 3 smaller meals a day, special B vitamins, and slippery elm. Reduce the enzymes to about 3/4 tsp per meal.

Lymphangiectasia was mentioned at different times but no definitive diagnosis. The EPI  question was my guess, but the others in her family were diagnosed with some kind of IBD. Bouts of  diarrhea. 

I'll talk to my vet or his staff, tomorrow. Leave the information in case he's not there.

Many thanks again. I'll let you know how we go from here.



March 31, 2017 at 4:59 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Sparkle Tangerine
Member
Posts: 175

Hang in there. Montgomery was diagnosed with EPI last February and it took a year to get formed stool out of him. Be patient. "The prize is always worth the rocky ride." - Emily Saliers.

--

Montgomery (DSH orange tabby and white) was born on 21 March 2012. He was hand-raised from five days old and first developed EPI symptoms at eight days old. He was diagnosed in February of 2016.

Montgomery eats RCFHN Spayed/Neutered Kitten. He gets one cupful over six meals each day. He takes two size zero capsules of Pank-Aid enzymes with each meal. He gets one quarter teaspoonful Pet Kelp Probiotic once each day. He gets one size four capsule of Tylosin three times each day. He gets a B12 injection once a month. He is a whopping 4kg! He is fully furred and his skin looks awesome!

"The hardest to learn was the least complicated." - Emily Saliers

March 31, 2017 at 6:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

Hi Bobbie.... please keep us posted!

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 31, 2017 at 10:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Well, I dropped off the material I printed from this site for my girl's vet to review yesterday. They were busy with limited staff, so I will try and take Christina in tomorrow do bloodwork and a urinary workup. Also start the B injections. From what I read here she will need the injections weekly for six weeks and then be re-evaluated. The pills aren't helpful until she is stable.

Her stool went past 7 to water this morning, like they were when the ER vet told me there was no more to be done. Perhaps the 50/50 ratio of protein to starch (potatoes) is too high. When I fed her 2x a day she was getting 1/2c protein to 1 c. starch. so 1:2 ratio. I'll bet that is what triggered this mess this morning. I'll try 1/3 c protein to 2/3 c starch for her last meal today.

After the mess poo, I washed her hinder off and she napped a bit and then trotted into the kitchen and drank some Pedialyte (unflavored). I thought we were done with it, but she is so washed I thought it was time again.

I look at the pictures of your healthy dogs and so hope I can help my dolly recover.

Slippery elm, I will pick that up too after we see her doctor. I'll call first thing in the morning. And I will ask about the RC super special food. I highlighted it on the papers I left for her doctor.

Thank you again for being there.

April 2, 2017 at 11:25 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

And my new 8 qt stock pot was just delivered (Amazon) so now I can boil her turkey breast. Before I roasted them. This might be better for her. I hope boiled turkey helps her.

April 2, 2017 at 11:32 AM Flag Quote & Reply

TessGSD
Member
Posts: 13

Hi Bobby, 

It's so heartbreaking to read your story with Christina.

Just before Tess was diagnosed with EPI just before Christmas, her stools were dark brown liquid like coffee or chocolate. Since her previous food wasn't agreeing with her at all, we transitioned her to a Royal Canin hydrolyzed food with cooked chicken and rice. Even though rice doesn't agree with most EPI dogs, a simple bland diet seemed to work best and gave her good firm solid stools even with enzymes. May I suggest that you add sweet potato rather than normal potatoes. We gave Tess sweet potatoes when trying to work out what was wrong and found that with all of the nutrients from the sweet potatoes she was a lot more alert, active and had better stools. 

Hope this info helps.

Enid and Tess

--

Tess - German Shepherd

DOB: 8 Oct 2015

Diagnosis: EPI with food sensitivity - 21 Dec 2016 (14 months old)

Test Results:

TLI: <1.0 ug/L (5.2-34)

B12/Cobalamin: 204 pmol/L (150-1020)  - non-fasting test

Original Treatment Plan:

Enzymes: 2 x Creon 25000 per meal

B12: weekly injections x 4, followed by fortnightly injections

Diet: Royal Canin Hypoallergenic


Updates:

March 2017 - changed diet from Royal Canin Hypoallergenic to Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea (Salmon)

Mid April 2017 - changed B12 injections from fortnightly to weekly due to lack of weight gain, eating stools and changes in mood and behaviour.

Mid August 2017 - changed B12 injections from weekly to fortnightly due to improvement.

September 2017 - changed diet from Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea (Salmon) to Canidae Grain Free Pure Sky (Duck)

Beginning October 2017 - changed B12 injections from fortnightly to weekly due to changes in behaviour and mood.

April 2, 2017 at 7:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Enid, I've used 3 parts sweet potato to 1 part white. Boiled. Do you think I should just feed sweet? She loves them. The past 24 hours have been almost all 7 stools and more frequent than what I had seen--about 4 hours after eating now. I have a urine sample to take in this morning and hope they can do a brief office visit to give her the first of the B injections.

I am readying her second meal now, cooking the sweet potatoes and could just feed those and no white. I'll do that. She is getting 1 c of food per meal now in 3 meals. 1/3 c roast turkey breast and 2/3 c sweet potatoes. 3/4 tsp PanaKare Plus.

I'll ask the vet about ordering the super hydrolegized food too. I have the GI here but that cause the stool that made the ER vet recommend she be euthanized now two months ago. But I will ask her regular vet who saved her life so far.

Thank you! :)

Bobbie

April 3, 2017 at 7:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

TessGSD
Member
Posts: 13

Sorry, about not getting back to you earlier - it's the time difference - I'm in Australia. I would personally cut out the white potato and just keep the sweet potato and turkey. When starting the hydrolyzed food, you should ideally start transitioning Christina over a 10 day period starting with 25% of hydrolyzed food - 75% turkey/sweet potato. 

Hope this helps.

Enid and Tess

--

Tess - German Shepherd

DOB: 8 Oct 2015

Diagnosis: EPI with food sensitivity - 21 Dec 2016 (14 months old)

Test Results:

TLI: <1.0 ug/L (5.2-34)

B12/Cobalamin: 204 pmol/L (150-1020)  - non-fasting test

Original Treatment Plan:

Enzymes: 2 x Creon 25000 per meal

B12: weekly injections x 4, followed by fortnightly injections

Diet: Royal Canin Hypoallergenic


Updates:

March 2017 - changed diet from Royal Canin Hypoallergenic to Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea (Salmon)

Mid April 2017 - changed B12 injections from fortnightly to weekly due to lack of weight gain, eating stools and changes in mood and behaviour.

Mid August 2017 - changed B12 injections from weekly to fortnightly due to improvement.

September 2017 - changed diet from Canidae Grain Free Pure Sea (Salmon) to Canidae Grain Free Pure Sky (Duck)

Beginning October 2017 - changed B12 injections from fortnightly to weekly due to changes in behaviour and mood.

April 4, 2017 at 1:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

Hi Bobbie..... my heart just goes out to you..... pleaes try the slippery elm as soon as you can... at least to stop the loose stools while you and your vet figure out what is going on... usually slippery elm works right away.... i hope so in Christina's case.


Sweet potato is LOADED with vitamins and minerals... where as white potato is known to contribute to inflammation and doesn't come close to being nutritious as Sweet potato which doe not contribute to inflammation.


Glad you highlighted the RC "Ultamino" food... it is a hydrolyzed food made with cornstarch which is MUCH better then the other versions packed with corn ..... especially since IBD runs in her family lines..... this hydrolyzed food with B12 and Slippery Elm powder...might give her the positive response you are praying for...........


Please do keep us posted... it is so hard to watch them suffer. We hope some of our suggestions help... but even if not, andif you jsut really need a shoulder to lean on... we are here for you.


As always... share EVERYTHING with your vet that we suggest to you.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

April 4, 2017 at 10:34 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Marilyn Marinelli
Member
Posts: 801

Have you given your dog a TLI test to be sure that that is what the diagnoses is?  Did you have the B12 tested?  If you dog has EPI than you need to read the info above go to Download and then to "EPI Quick Guide"

The B12 for your dog, if it has EPI, needs to be not just a normal reading but above average 600+.

ALso, I have a question.  If you are feeding turkey and sweet potatoes only that means you are not supplementing any other vitamins? Also, if your dog is an EPI dog they are not to have chicken...I would think turkey might be in the same category. Just my thought here. 

Hope everything will even out for you and your dog. Please keep us updated.

April 5, 2017 at 1:59 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Patsy
Member
Posts: 941

Sorry to hear of your problems,  great advice given already. Did Texas A&M  actually do a cTLI test? If so you need the numbers they gave so we don't give you wrong advice.  Some digestive problems need totally different approaches to fibre.

   If it actually is Epi, I would guess that you are using too much fibre  and the enzyme dose per meal for a little cocker is too much.    The diet you are using has little oil or fat in it,  but the enzymes you add can deal with normal fat and oil  perfectly well,  so maybe you need less enzyme.  OR  you need to suggest to the vet that you need a more balanced diet with a vitamin and mineral supplement,  plus some salmon oil or virgin coconut oil.   This is where the suggestion that you you use a commercial hydrolized food would save the guesswork.  As said before, too much enzyme causes diarrhoea ,  as does too little. 

Whats happening with antibiotics at the moment?   Lastly, another vote for slippery elm powder,  harmless and soothing,,and used by humans. Get that poor gut to relax!

we are all thinking of you, and hope for a little improvement  everyday. 



--

Marti  Springer Spaniel, owned by Patsy, Sheffield, England.  She died age 12yrs 6mths  on 27/11/14 from heart failure. Diagnosed after three months, when she was 4 years old,she dropped from 24 kilos to 17 kg.  initially she also had protein losing enteropathy, treated with steroids, ,raw sores on back, obsessive thirst, bursting bowels and biadder, then stable after 2 years.   Developed another autoimmune problem with muscular myositis on head ( muscles wasted away, leaving gaunt hollows.)  She also suffered sometimes from  bottom end thrush, anal  gland infections, and recurrent SIBO treated with 4 weeks of oxytetracycline each time. 

Enzymes: Panzym caused mouth problems, resulting in tooth removal , as I didn't know at the time how caustic it was. I changed to one Lypex  then used VetUk Pancreatic Nutrient tablets, and one Chemeyes because it is half the strength, and I didn't need to use two vet uk ones. Then 3 Chemeyes or  2 pancreatic Nutrient  per meal. 

B12 injection monthly.  Trinfac B12 + intrinsic factor capsules from Chemeyes daily. Metacam for knee joints.  Also used Yumpro Bio pre/probiotics.

Food: picky eater,tinned  Chappie saved her life  till she would eat kibble again.  Eden Holistic, Millies Wolfheart and Lily's Kitchen all good,chicken and grain free.

Vets, one caring learner, who had  nervous breakdown, replaced by obnoxious vet , so I rang round  interviewing them to find someone I trusted and would work with us. Since losing Marti and Bob, I have changed again since the good vet us retired.

RIP Bobby the cocker , from PLN.  Present pet, Tinker the fluffy little grey Greek rescue dog. New addition, Jack ,  a neglected rescue terrier, looks like a fox cub and so happy to to be healthy and loved.

 


April 5, 2017 at 5:42 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

when"home feeding" with enzymes an EPI dog .... rule of thumb is if possible approximately 75% protein and 25% everything else (carbs/veggies).... HOWEVER.... sometimes we can push it to 50% protein and 50% "other" ... not always but sometimes.  


And ALWAYS include a qaulity doggie vitamin and bone or bone meal.... VERY IMPORTANT!


Just thought i would share..... in case this is helpful.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

April 5, 2017 at 10:44 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

I looked for my ER vet bill and find the receipt but not the actual itemized statement. I don't know if they gave it to me to be honest. I was a mess after 8 hours there (2:30 pm to 10:30 pm) What the first ER vet told me was she was taking blood to send to Texas A&M to look for the "crazy" something gut tests. When the second ER vet called me a week later, he was non-specific that I remember--it could be pancreas (no masses visible on xrays or ultra-sound) or one of two malabsorption gut issues or lymphoma. So exactly what tests were done (2 of them) that went to Texas, I don't know. I will ask my vet. He is supposed to have all her test results and records.

The diet was based on my vet and the experiences of the owner of Christina's cousin. The ER vet put her on a diet of tilapia and sweet potatoes plus olive oil, vitamins, TUMS, Metamucil, and a a Purina supplement. Christina's vet suggested a bland diet and because she'd always eaten chicken and I chose turkey. For a month there was nothing more--just the turkey and potatoes. I asked but her doctor was hesitant to add vitamins. She's had no antibiotics since the third ER visit. Just diazapam and prednisone.

I read the EPI story on Whole Dog Journal looking for more information and sent her doctor the link. During the first ER visit they kept looking at her pancreas, but nothing definitive. Her vet suggested trying the enzymes and I looked for a miracle, though her regular vet was not convinced it was the problem, but he felt it wouldn't hurt her. The dosage on the clinic label was way off. 3 tsp. per 5 lbs of dog. I started with 2 tsp. then dropped it to 1, then tried to increase it to 1 1/4 and worried it wasn't therepeutic since I wasn't seeing consistent improvement, I tried to up it to 1 1/2 tsp but that seemed to make it worse.

Then I found this list. We are waiting on the B vitamins. She has not had a blood test since the end of January. I did take in a urine sample and he said there were some white cells and proteins and we could treat or not. I opted not since it seemed antibiotics (I say seemed because now I am not sure what was going on) seemed to help the first week but the second week she was not feeling well with loose stools. The problem we had with the second ER visit is they wanted her switches to the Royal Canin immediately--and nothing else. No fresh foods added. This vet did not believe in anything but the RC.

So she went in hours from 1/2 c. Canidae to 1 1/3c. RC GI diet. By Thursday the ER vet who prescribed it felt she had no quality of life and recommended euthanisia. I brought her home to take her to her own vet and the rest of that story I told.

I just added the slippery elm to her food this morning. She is falling backwards after each bout of diarrhea. We got to a five once, but most of her stools are 6 and 7s. She's been in the 6 range for most of the time.

I printed out the advice here last week and dropped it off for her doctor with the urine sample. He told me he appreciated it and it was helpful. I asked that before we the first B injection, we do another full panel. I want a baseline.

Oh too, on your advice, I split her food into three smaller meals. 1 c. 3x a day. She loves it but those stools still are on the low end. (That measure is helpful in bringing reality to the front--mashed potatoes is not good enough.)

What tests should she have? Even if they were done earlier, perhaps it would be helpful to redo them now three months later? And I have a littermate brother who has intermittent bouts of diarrhea (unexplained) that is similar but not as advanced. If there are tests to diagnose these things, he should have them too.

Thank you all for everything.

Bobbie

April 8, 2017 at 2:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bobbie K
Member
Posts: 41

Just a consideration, the Royal Canin GI product is chicken based. The ER vet checked to see if I could use chicken to give Christina all her medicines. :(

April 8, 2017 at 8:07 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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