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Forum Home > General Discussion > SID Possibility for the First Time?

Artemis286
Member
Posts: 31
Hello, I started a new thread off my post regarding chronic kidney failure since this is a probable separate issue. Unfortunately, Grandma Lucy's Valor food did not agree with Kano (attempted the switch as it would have been a better option for his kidneys than dry kibble). Tried a whole bag and a half and his stools never improved. The formula does have quinoa, which I knew would be iffy but thought the potential benefits outweighed the risk. I have since switched him back to Orijen Original but we are now struggling with consistent solid feces. He's now been back on Orijen for over a month along with 3/4 tsp enzymes per cup, same as before when he was successfully managed. I'm wondering if we're perhaps experiencing SID for the first time? No watery stool but smelly and inconsistent from relatively normal to soft. He's also attempting to eat grass like he did before his EPI diagnosis. Still high energy and wants to eat but not noticeable weight loss. Think I should order some Tylan?
--

Kristin & Kano Minneapolis, MN

 Kano: Male GSD, DOB - 2/13/14, Diagnosed with EPI on 11/30/16; Weight when healthy - 90lbs, lowest weight - 68.2lbs

 EPI Test Results: Spec cPL: 30, TLI: 1.5, B12: <150, Folate: 8.2, Cortisol: 2.7

 Began treatment on 12/8/16: 3/4 teaspoon 8x enzymes from Enzyme Diane per cup of Origens Original mixed with warm water; monthly B12 injections. Diagnosed and treated Lyme's Disease in March, 2017 but resulted in stage 2 chronic kidney failure

"It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~Anonymous

RIP Kaia (passed due to complications from Gastropexy), my shadow, my protector. You left us too soon.


May 2, 2017 at 8:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2879
Hi Kristen - sorry Kano is having a set back - I do love seeing your photos though - hopefully next time it will be because Kano is stable. It does sound like it could be SIBO - I would talk to your vet about a 45 day course of Tylan. Have you been supplementing B12? I don't know about how that is with Kano's kidney issues. B12 is critical with EPI dogs but if there is another medical condition like kidney failure I know Olesia says to give the other medical consideration first so I'm not sure about supplementing B12 with kidney issues. Hugs Madelon
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


May 2, 2017 at 10:18 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 862

Hi Krisen,

I think I might try going to the initial one teaspoon per cup of food and see if it doesn't firm things up first. If, in a few days you don't see improvement, maybe give Tylan a try...

Donna

May 3, 2017 at 6:50 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Artemis286
Member
Posts: 31
Donna, thank you for the suggestion! I am giving the stronger 8x formula of enzymes so I'm not certain I should go that high but I will increase the amount of enzymes by a little to see if that helps.
--

Kristin & Kano Minneapolis, MN

 Kano: Male GSD, DOB - 2/13/14, Diagnosed with EPI on 11/30/16; Weight when healthy - 90lbs, lowest weight - 68.2lbs

 EPI Test Results: Spec cPL: 30, TLI: 1.5, B12: <150, Folate: 8.2, Cortisol: 2.7

 Began treatment on 12/8/16: 3/4 teaspoon 8x enzymes from Enzyme Diane per cup of Origens Original mixed with warm water; monthly B12 injections. Diagnosed and treated Lyme's Disease in March, 2017 but resulted in stage 2 chronic kidney failure

"It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~Anonymous

RIP Kaia (passed due to complications from Gastropexy), my shadow, my protector. You left us too soon.


May 3, 2017 at 7:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Riley's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 1937

You could try increasing enzymes a pinch, but it does sound like SID is creeping in. I think it is time for a chat with the vet about Tylan. You could also ask about increasing the B12 intervals, as Madelon said, not sure how this impacts the kidney issues so best to ask the vet about it before increasing frequency. EPI is a balancing act and when you add kidney issues in, it makes it a little more challenging, but hang in there, I'm sure you can sort it out!

--

Elisabeth

Riley's Mom from Chesapeake, VA

Riley, 8 yr old Labradoodle diagnosed September 2014 cTLI 1.6

Weight before diagnosis 40 lbs, lowest weight 33 lbs, ready for the Chunky Monkey club as she weighed in at a whopping 42 pounds on 12/19/14!

Update: as of 2/25/15 Riley weighs in at 44.2 pounds!

Update: as of 6/15/15 Riley weighs in at 45 pounds!

Feeding grain free kibble TOTW, 1 tsp of Diane's 6x enzymes per cup of food. (I mix the enzymes in something moist). She is a picky eater--lately feeding her on a flat plate is the way to entice her to eat. 1 cup in the am, 2 cups in the pm, 1 tsp of coconut oil per meal, 1 packet of FortiFlora probiotic in the pm meal.

Began weekly B12 shots 10/23/14. Holding on shots for now.

Began 1 Wonderlabs B12 in the morning, 1 in the evening. Capsule opened up and sprinkled on her food.


*I am not a vet, anything I share or suggest on this site is solely from my experience as an EPI dog owner. It is recommended that anything shared or suggested on this forum be discussed with your pet's vet.*

May 5, 2017 at 7:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Buttermom
Administrator
Posts: 2496

I'm gonna jump on the antibiotic bandwagon. Take a look at the Sid/Siobhan information above, and print it out to discuss the use of Tylan with your vet.  If you haven't tested the b12 lately, I would suggest doing that before restarting supplementation. With any type of kidney problems, you'll want to know what the numbers are.  You could try increasing the enzymes by 1/8th, but I would definitely discuss getting an antibiotic started for Sid. Please, feel free to refer to any of the information above.....

Susan

--

"I am I because my little dog knows me."   Gertrude Stein

Butterbean, Chihuahua born on 06-27-2004, diagnosed in May-June of 2010 via pancreatic biopsy. TLI score of 0.7. Feeding Natural Balance LID Potato and Duck. 1/4 cup with 1/4 tsp of enzymes, twice a day.  She gets a B12 shot every 10 days, and a Wonderlab's capsule every other day.  She gets a maintenance dose of Cosequin every other day. Butter gets 1/4tsp of coconut oil, and a 1/2tsp of Platinum Plus CJ every day. Our new regimen now includes 1mg of prednisone every day, 1/4 tablet (50 mg) of trazodone twice a day, 0.3 ml of omeprazole every day, 1/16th tsp of lactobacillus acidophilus every 3 days, and 500mg of wild salmon oil every other day. 

We lost Butter on the 24th of April, 2017 to cognitive brain disease.  


May 5, 2017 at 8:28 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Barb
Member
Posts: 3860

I agree with discussing a protocol of tylan with your vet.  Smelly, inconsistent stools seem to point to SID, but like others have said, it would be informative to test the B12 too.  Often, it is all connected.  But with the kidney issues, you want to make sure you would not compromise him by just adding the B12.  


He is such a stunner!   Love the action photos.


Barb


--


May 5, 2017 at 11:43 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16822

Hi Kristin.... so sorry Kano is having a set back...what you are describing ("iffy" poos ) sure does sound like SID/SIBO brewing... but because of the kidney issues... i know you have to be very careful with antibiotics, and many other supplements.  PLease do talk to your vet about his thought on treating for SID/SIBO and with what and how much because of the kidney issues.


However... in the meantime... i also think slightly increasing the enzymes (just by 1/8 of a tsp) might be a very good first step, but then you still have to find a diet that best agrees with the Kidney issues but still is tolerable with the EPI Issues.


My gals' EPi was very well managed until year 7 into EPI... and then she developed Diabetes..... OMG... what a nightmare to find a food that kept her diabetes in check but yet still agreed with EPI..... in the end... i did find the right diet, BUT... i had to give the Diabetes preference (so to compensate) i had to give a pinch more enzymes then what normally would have been needed because of the ingredients..... but then.... i found that althou her diabetes was under control, then she started drastically losing weight.... so... i had to do a combo of mostly fresh food (but low fat) and a pinch more enzymes and then just a tiny bit of kibble to keep the weight up..... this crazy combination worked... but i had to scrutinize each ingredient.


What i found out is that sometimes with EPI dog we CAN use the food ingredients that we are not supposed to... but only sparingly ... if we need to... to address another health condition.


The worst luck i had was trying to find an already prepared commercial food that satisfied both needs... .... and that is what i am wondering with you.... if you might be better off starting with a diet that is mostly geared toward kidney issues , increase the enzymes to compensate, but then pare it down some of the offensive ingredients to more readily suit EPI if you are seeing EPI set-backs.....


It is definitely a balancing act... Please share with your vet and maybe y keeping detailed notes, you both can come up with a home-created diet that works best.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 5, 2017 at 12:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Artemis286
Member
Posts: 31

Hello Everyone,

Wanted to provide a quick update!  Thank you for your responses and ideas!  I have increased Kano's enzymes by 1/8 of a teaspoon and added about 1 tbsp of plain yogurt and his stool *seems* to be improving - he was even boarded over the weekend and they didn't report any loose stool!  I also emailed our vet describing the stool issues and I linked the SID page from this site.  She emailed back suggesting FortiFlora probiotic.  I will read more on this site about probiotics...

As for finding food that works best for both the kidney issues and EPI...I am planning on keeping him on Orijens and adding in some ground meat & fresh fruit/veg.  Orijens is already low phosphorous and the additional raw foods will reduce that level even more.  In a perfect world, I would feed raw, hands down.  We just do not have the budget or space.  On the positive, I just started a new job working for a large humane society and a major benefit is reduced cost exams, bloodwork, etc.  Woohoo!


--

Kristin & Kano Minneapolis, MN

 Kano: Male GSD, DOB - 2/13/14, Diagnosed with EPI on 11/30/16; Weight when healthy - 90lbs, lowest weight - 68.2lbs

 EPI Test Results: Spec cPL: 30, TLI: 1.5, B12: <150, Folate: 8.2, Cortisol: 2.7

 Began treatment on 12/8/16: 3/4 teaspoon 8x enzymes from Enzyme Diane per cup of Origens Original mixed with warm water; monthly B12 injections. Diagnosed and treated Lyme's Disease in March, 2017 but resulted in stage 2 chronic kidney failure

"It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life, gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are." ~Anonymous

RIP Kaia (passed due to complications from Gastropexy), my shadow, my protector. You left us too soon.


May 8, 2017 at 11:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16822

Hi Kristin.....good update on Kano  appearing to improve.... paws and fingers crossed it continues.  It is such a balancing act when trying to address the dietery needs of TWO health concerns.... but it can be done.  Personally i think adding more "whole" foods to a commercial food  to help the diet satisfy both health concerns is a great idea :)


Congratulations on your new job!!!   Working for a huge humane society... AWESOME!!!!..... maybe you'll be able to give us some much needed suggestions sometime too.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 9, 2017 at 4:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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