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Forum Home > General Discussion > New Member Minnie needs help

MinnieLou
Member
Posts: 2

Hello Everyone,   There are a couple parts to this.......

Firstly,  we have a great deal of gratitude for you all.  I've been lurking for a few years, learning everything I can after Minnie  (14.5 yrs Brindle Lab Boxer x) had an emergency pure blood diarrhea after grabbing something dead under the melting snow. At that time I was living in a very unprogressive area.  I had to pay for opening a Texas A&M account at the vet b/c she had never heard of them.  Minnie did not have EPI at the time, just pancreatitis.  The vet gave her flagyl for a month. 

Because I wasn't sure what caused the episode, I switched her to a raw diet- chicken.  I had studied raw for my cats. Her stool firmed immediately.  She had previously been on Wellness Core dry chicken.  It was the only higher end dry food in that area that didn't give her loose stools.  She's been on raw ever since, stools perfect, with a couple isolated loose stools. We make her food as I've found the commercial raw is too fatty and too expensive.  Her issues have been gas and acid. She eats grass-always has.  I give her slippery elm, Wonderlabs B12/folate w/ intrinsic factor, sodium ascorbate, trace minerals, Bioplasma cell salts, Pawier liquid vitamins.  Over the years, she's become more sensitive to supplements so I've tried to keep it simple. Her stool has been consistently firm and on schedule.  Her personality is over the top clown.

She was tested again last year w/ A&M- still w/n normal range on all accounts. Yet still dealing w/ acid and gas at that time which is why I had her tested again- still living in the same area. We finally were able to move last Fall to Colorado. I also had her tested for Plechner Syndrome of which she tested positive, however, I didn't have anyone there to r/x what she needed.

We have tried various digestive enzymes, Mercola dig enzymes made her pained, Dr. good pets, Enzyme Miracle, and various probiotics didn't seem to change anything. I've tried various Liver supps, Tumeric, still same.

The reason I write today is bc I believe she has been having a flare this past week after giving her rice/boiled chicken.  I did so b/c her chiropractor and I felt boswellia might help her w/ her knee/hips (another story).  I started her low and slow considering her h/x. After 4 days I stopped it as she started to act lethargic and pained.  After stopping the boswellia I gave her boiled chicken/rice - fine w/ it in the past. She seemed better for it at first but after the second day I saw her stool going soft and not very happy.  I put her back on her regular raw and after two days she was feeling much better, biting at moths and such. This was this past Thursday into Friday she felt better.  She never stopped eating or drinking. She has always been fed 2x day w/ a snack before bed.  The snack helps the acid.

In between all of this, last Sunday evening, May 7, I noticed something in her mouth, bottom jaw behind her middle molars.  I took her to the vet the next day, Monday to discuss her stomach and mouth.  Three weeks ago she was chewing on a bone and acted like she couldn't get something out of her teeth and twenty minutes later, I didn't see her have an issue  again.  Anyway, the vet wants to do a biopsy w full anesthetic as well as other vets we called.  We elected to do bloodwork this past Friday to at least see where's she's at.  Ironically, after two days back on raw she was feeling better (the biting moths), did well at the vet w blood draw. Vet said I could syringe her mouth w/ colloidal silver to release food stuck .  I also gave her a litle pumpkin. Then  the next day, Saturday (yesterday), she acted like her stomach was not well again.  Eating but slowly.  So not sure if colloidal silver or pumpkin set her back. Her bloodwork came back via Antech PrecisionPSL -their pancreatitis marker- high 251 (24-140).

The other values out of alignment are:

ALK PHOS  HIGH  331  (5-131)

BUN  HIGH 61 (6-31)

CREATININE 1.8 HIGH   ( 0.5-1.6)

CHOLESTEROL 360 HIGH  (92-324)

Urine is fine.  Fecal shows LOW bacteria (not sure what that is b/c they didn't give me copies nor explain their thoughts).


The rest of the chem and cbc panels were in range.  She did have diarrhea the week prior possibly causing dehydration. The boswellia wasn't good for her either. I couldn't find anything regarding LOW bacteria in stool.  Does anyone have any info about that?  Can pancreatic pain be from SIBO?  Can there be SIBO w/ low stool bacteria?  Is it possible to have SIBO w/ firm stools? 

The vet didn't think doing the full A&M panel ($430 cost-seems high) was necessary since she's been w/ n range ever since the initial pancreatitis issue years back.  She thinks its IBD.  Because the mouth is now involved my head is spinning bc I can't give her anything to help her when her gut is off.  We have no idea what is going on in her mouth and no one wants to figure it out w/o big dramatic scheduled procedures.  The thing is looking worse day by day and they can't biopsy until next Friday, then pathology takes 5-10 days to even find out, let alone do something about it if we even can.

The issue I have is that her stomach is suddenly instantly off after the boswellia and rice so I don't know how to navigate this situation.  The vet wants to ultrasound on Tues.  I'm willing to do it in the event she has cancer, then we would know not to put her through any more but I hate even seeing these words typed.  But what if she doesn't have cancer.... her gut needs help more than ever. 

I really hope this can be followed.  I appreciate and am grateful for any thoughts.  I'm her only advocate. 

Thank you, all.......

Brenda and Minnie     I also tried uploading photos and such, however, it was glitchy and wanted to get this off.




May 14, 2017 at 5:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

Hi Brenda, and welcome to you and MInnie,


So sorry to hear that she is having all these issues and it is SO hard when you really don't know what is going on.

I would like to do a little more checking into her values before i say to much... BUT..... although i am not positive, i think what they mean when they say LOW bacteria my guess is that they are referring to the bacteria population does not have a lot of bacterial strains like a healthy gut would and my understanding (from the EPI perspective) is that this happens when you are looking at a dog with SID, and i suspect the same is true for an IBD dog.


Please don't take this to mean that i am saying that your dog has EPI or IBD ... however.... it does sound like there is some kind of gut flora imbalance (and possibly SID... depending....) going on when they say LOW bacteria.......


However... all those blood values.... my guess is that the very best thing to do is to have your vet further test for what might be going on....


will get back to you on the other test results....

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 14, 2017 at 6:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

Hi again Brenda,  i had a moment to really look at the blood values and hope that you will consider asking your vet to run further blood tests and/or that you will also consider some procedures that you are comfortable with that the vet is suggesting.


With the high Creatine, BUN, Cholesterol and ALK Phosphate.... and the fact that according the Antech... it is pointing toward Pancreatitis....  some of the above additional "high" test values can be related to just the Pancreatitis or it can be indicating Cushings or a Kidney issue, or Heart problem, but....some can even be a false read from something like too much vitamin C, or certain antibioics/supplements and of course any steroids taken, and even the time when you had the blood drawn (like was it near a meal, or a high protein meal) any of these variables could have triggered some of these high values......... and add to the mix the LOW (count) bacteria in the fecal matter which can be a result of any of the above conditions and more!   All this to say....these are just some possibilities...., but too many to be of any help without further testing.


I hope you can get some answers soon......... 

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 14, 2017 at 11:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Administrator
Posts: 7356

welcome Brenda from the UK


I have very liitle knowledge on some of what you are talking, so Olesia is your best bet


however rice can be sometimes badly tolerated by animals, maybe try mashed potato


Jill knows a lot about pancreatitis so she may be able shed light,I will contact her


Jean

--



 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


Adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

Enzymes-Panzym 3 gram per meal twice daily ( 3/4 teaspoon ) 

B12 injection once every three weeks

One Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

One Antepsin before bedtime

Allergies to beef, pork, chicken. and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

37 kilos as of 10th June 2014

40.65 kilos, 89.6 pounds as of 3rd March 2015

Vet says she is now processing her food correctly

Very proud of all of us

 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"


I am not a vet, nor have veterinary experience, but have lived and breathed EPI for 51/2 years, and hope I can bring some support to others, as others have to me.

 

May 15, 2017 at 7:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16992

thanks for that tip Jean ;)

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 15, 2017 at 8:54 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Administrator
Posts: 3614
Good morning. I am so sorry you dog is having all of these issues. Pancreatitis can skew all sorts of blood values as Olesia says. I would follow her advice. Mickey was always good on rice but as Jean says you might try plain mashed potatoes, cream of wheat made with water or low sodium low fat broth. Definitely keep all fat content low in the diet. I would check in with your vet and explore more.
--

   Jill-  Washington State

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria,high blood pressure, hypothyroid, spinal stenosis

diet of  hard boiled eggs, macaroni,  RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow, 1- 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day ,  Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn sirup for arthritis, .1mg Adequan weekly by shot. 75mg Tylan 2x./day for SIBO

Optimmune for Dry eyes

 Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

TJ is the newest addition.  He is in the bottom picture with Kiya.  He was born 7/05/2015. 

I am not a vet, just a pet owner sharing what experiences I have had in helping my dogs with other pet owners.  If you have an emergency please call your vet.





May 15, 2017 at 10:19 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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