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Forum Home > General Discussion > Luna, B12 and Tylosin

Kandi and Luna
Member
Posts: 22

Hi all, I have some more questions.

Luna's condition has gotten worse and I took her to the vet.

Luna was tested for B12 and showed a defficiency.  I had been giving her 1cc of B12 injection once a month.  This was obviously not enough...how often does the forum recommend the injections?  1 X a week or ??

Also, because she was getting worse (eating poo, "pudding type" poo, gassy and obviously in distress) she was put on Tylosin.  She has been on it for 5 days and I don't see any changes yet.  How long does it take to start working?

Luna did great for a year and I forgot how stressful it is when things don't go well.

Thanks in advance for all of your help and support!!

--

Luna, possibly White GSD (rescue) approximately 4-5 years old

Diagnosed 4/29/16.  Highest weight 68 pounds, lowest weight 56.5

6/15/16 - vet check up and at ideal weight of 67.7 pounds!!!

Testing was done at TAMU

TLI fasting test revealed 1.9mg/L (norm is 5.7 to 45.2)

B12 testing performed 5/17 after relapse and SID diagnosis

Folate fasting test showed 12.9mg/L and appears in normal range??

Luna gets 2 meals a day :

2 meals a day of 2 cups of Costco salmon and sweet potato food with 1- 1/2 t of  enzymes




May 15, 2017 at 10:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2715
Hi there! I'm so sorry Luna has had a set back. What was the B12 when it was tested? It says in your signature that you didnB12 shots for 5weeks did you stop after that or did you continue to supplement? B12 supplementing is critical to managing EPI. As for how often to do the shots, after you follow the recommended protocol it's a matter of figuring out for your individual dog how often they need it. Some do weekly shots, some do twice a week, etc and some like myself use the WonderLab PetFactor pills. With regard to the Tylan - how much are you giving and how often? Sorry for the questions but it will help us be able to offer suggestions. Try not to stress too much - setbacks are usually resolved pretty quickly.
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


May 15, 2017 at 1:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Kandi and Luna
Member
Posts: 22

Hi and thanks for your response and questions!

For the Tylosin, I am giving her 800mg 2 times a day for 6 weeks.

I stopped the B12 for 2 months (per vet recommendation)and had a bit of a relaps.  Then kept up with monthly shots until this relaps.  That's when I asked for a B12 test.  I don't know what the numbers were unfortunately, except that both B12 and Folate were low.  I will keep giving her 1 injection of 1cc once a week for now and see how that goes.

Thanks!!


--

Luna, possibly White GSD (rescue) approximately 4-5 years old

Diagnosed 4/29/16.  Highest weight 68 pounds, lowest weight 56.5

6/15/16 - vet check up and at ideal weight of 67.7 pounds!!!

Testing was done at TAMU

TLI fasting test revealed 1.9mg/L (norm is 5.7 to 45.2)

B12 testing performed 5/17 after relapse and SID diagnosis

Folate fasting test showed 12.9mg/L and appears in normal range??

Luna gets 2 meals a day :

2 meals a day of 2 cups of Costco salmon and sweet potato food with 1- 1/2 t of  enzymes




May 15, 2017 at 2:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16521

Regarding the B12  when an EPI dog has insufficient B12, they need to be placed on a B12 regimen until the B12 levels are brought up to upper mid range. The B2 shot protocol is 

For parenteral cobalamin supplementation:

 weekly injections for 6 weeks, then one dose a month later, and retesting one month after the last dose. (and this is when you and your vet are to determine going forward how often should the shots be given.... usually the vet will try going once a month, but then if you see the pet start to have issues.... change to either bi-weekly or weekly....


Regarding the SID/SIBO flare-up that appears to have happened..... the rule of thumb is to give the antibiotic 7-10  days to see is you see any positive reaction... if not.... then talk with your vet about swapping out the antibiotic. Since you are on Tylan now, then you most likely wuld try Metronidazole next.


However... i do have a quesiton... are you giving the Tylan Twice a day???  Some vets prescribe it jsut once a day and just from our observation here on the forum, that never seems to work out with these dogs...and also the protocol set forth by TAMU is twice a day (around breakfast and dinner).


Did you make a food change recently??? of not, what might be gong on is that Luna may now need 2 level tsps per the 2 cups of food you are giving her per meal with 1+1/2 tsp might not be enough and that might be what triggered this SID flare-up... or something else might have triggered it... but if nothing has changed... you might want to try upping the enzymes... and see if that (along with the antibiotic) fixes the problem.  


--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 15, 2017 at 10:47 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Kandi and Luna
Member
Posts: 22

Hi - she is on Tylan 2 times a day and has been on it for less than 7 days with no changes in food.

I think this is my vet's first EPI dog and we did not follow protocol for the B12, but now I fully understand.

Should I wait until I see if the antibiotic works prior to upping the enzymes?  

As always - thank you so much!!

--

Luna, possibly White GSD (rescue) approximately 4-5 years old

Diagnosed 4/29/16.  Highest weight 68 pounds, lowest weight 56.5

6/15/16 - vet check up and at ideal weight of 67.7 pounds!!!

Testing was done at TAMU

TLI fasting test revealed 1.9mg/L (norm is 5.7 to 45.2)

B12 testing performed 5/17 after relapse and SID diagnosis

Folate fasting test showed 12.9mg/L and appears in normal range??

Luna gets 2 meals a day :

2 meals a day of 2 cups of Costco salmon and sweet potato food with 1- 1/2 t of  enzymes




May 16, 2017 at 10:23 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2715
If you haven't made any other changes other than B12 then yes - try upping the enzymes - give it 3-5 days to see how it's going. I have noticed with my Doc if I make ANY change I have to give it 5-7 days to fully see how he is effected - for big bad GSD he is one delicate little flower LOL!!! So try hoping the enzymes like Olesia said and see how it goes. Please keep us updated!
--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


May 16, 2017 at 2:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16521

HI Kandi.... good that you are giving the Tylan twice a day.. and i chekced your dose... which is fine.more than fine... so give the Tylan 7-10 days before you make a change.


Regarding the enzymes... YES... go ahead and give the extra enzymes... that might be the underlying problem.


Oh.. and if this is the first EPI dog your vet has seen- -no problem, especially if your vet is one of those vets that likes to dig into things and do research.  If so... Luna will be in great hands :)  Some of the very best EPI vets are those who never treated EPI previously... and they work with the pet parent and individual patient .. try the protocol.. and understands that sometimes even protocol needs a wee bit of adjusting until you find the right balance of EPI treatment for that individual EPI dog.


Keep us posted!

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 16, 2017 at 4:37 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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