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Forum Home > General Discussion > Amount of crude protein in food

Evon Carpenter
Member
Posts: 5

My dog is a nine year old shepherd mix. She was diagnosed with EPI in October 2016 and has done well until a recent relapse due mostly to low B-12. She is on the mend and seems to be doing well again. I am changing her food in order to keep her crude fiber under 4%. I am now wondering EPI dog owners' experience with the amount of crude protein in the food for a senior EPI dog. Are there guidelines that have worked well for those dogs? Thank you for any information you can give me. (I'm in the US).

May 18, 2017 at 8:18 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Patsy
Member
Posts: 936

Hello Evon,  regarding protein and nine year old Epi dogs,  I have not read about them having different needs from normal dogs. If my dog had muscle wastage I would have been concerned, but this only appeared when she first had Epi, and normal food percentages, with low fibre, grain free,  was quite sufficient.  I always made her food more tempting with a small amount of fishy or meat extras. The only hiccup with varying the balance is that your perfect food:enzyme ratio may get unbalanced.    If you feel your dog is still a bit weaker, or has a dull coat, by all means supplement the protein .  Or add a quarter or half a teaspoonful of coconut oil.  Or just use more food.  Whatever you would do, a bit more enzyme might be needed to process it.

--

Marti  Springer Spaniel, owned by Patsy, Sheffield, England.  She died age 12yrs 6mths  on 27/11/14 from heart failure. Diagnosed after three months, when she was 4 years old,she dropped from 24 kilos to 17 kg.  initially she also had protein losing enteropathy, treated with steroids, ,raw sores on back, obsessive thirst, bursting bowels and biadder, then stable after 2 years.   Developed another autoimmune problem with muscular myositis on head ( muscles wasted away, leaving gaunt hollows.)  She also suffered sometimes from  bottom end thrush, anal  gland infections, and recurrent SIBO treated with 4 weeks of oxytetracycline each time. 

Enzymes: Panzym caused mouth problems, resulting in tooth removal , as I didn't know at the time how caustic it was. I changed to one Lypex  then used VetUk Pancreatic Nutrient tablets, and one Chemeyes because it is half the strength, and I didn't need to use two vet uk ones. Then 3 Chemeyes or  2 pancreatic Nutrient  per meal. 

B12 injection monthly.  Trinfac B12 + intrinsic factor capsules from Chemeyes daily. Metacam for knee joints.  Also used Yumpro Bio pre/probiotics.

Food: picky eater,tinned  Chappie saved her life  till she would eat kibble again.  Eden Holistic, Millies Wolfheart and Lily's Kitchen all good,chicken and grain free.

Vets, one caring learner, who had  nervous breakdown, replaced by obnoxious vet , so I rang round  interviewing them to find someone I trusted and would work with us. Since losing Marti and Bob, I have changed again since the good vet us retired.

RIP Bobby the cocker , from PLN.  Present pet, Tinker the fluffy little grey Greek rescue dog. New addition, Jack ,  a neglected rescue terrier, looks like a fox cub and so happy to to be healthy and loved.

 


May 19, 2017 at 2:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16831

Hi Evon,

Ahhhhh... the Diet.... and components of the Diet.  I will share with you what we recommend and also the pitfalls :)

First... it is recommended, when your EPI dog is first diagnosed,  to try a diet that has 4% or less Fiber Content. ANd when checking out various dog foods... "start" with the foods that appear to have their fiber content come from carbs (veggies, etc... NOT from grains). The reason for this is because fiber can inhibit the enzymatic activity. To what extent in each dog, we have no idea.... this may or may not happen and to what degree we have no idea.  HOWEVER time and time again, we have had EPi dog's parents not able to get the dog stable even after trying everything the vet told them until they switch to a "grain-free" diet. which we really mean a low fiber content diet   Does this happen everytime?? NO!  BUt it happens very often, and often enough to take note of it.  SO.......this is why we recommend a low fiber diet to start with.  Once the dog is stable... or if the dog still doesn't get stable after trying eveyrthing you are suposed to... then do try a food with jsut a little rice in it as some dogs acutally need this. We don't see this happen often, but it has happened. So you need to be open to all possibilities.


So... look for a food that has 4% or less fiber content....to try first.

Sometimes even less fiber content (like 3% or less) works better

Remember that sometimes it is not only the ingredients that matter, but the % of the ingredients that also matters.

SO........keep a journal because there is no way you are going to remember what works and what doesn't. Record the brand name of the food, the ingredients, the amount given and the reaction (poo, tummy noises, farting, burping, vomiting, etc)


When trying new foods, always buy the smallest bag possible... even with "recommended" food... because what works great for one EPI dog may not work at all for the next EPI dog.


Another thing to remember is that these dogs all have their very own gut flora balance or imbalance... so this can also account for variations.


Another thing to remember is that these dogs digest enzymes differently than people digest enzymes and the dog's digestive system ALSO has differences from the humans digestive system... so you can't go 100% by human enzymes/digestion explanations... there are differences...One thing to consider is that there are additional digestive enzymes ... the dog's gastric lipase... but how much that has not been damaged via the EPI condition ( SID ) is not known from one dog to another.... hence jsut another reason why there can be variance from one EPI dog to another.. 


And then there is the types of fiber to consider.  And this is a real can of worms... they used to go by highly fermentable and lowly fermentable foods ... but now they think it is more improtant to consider whether the fiber is more prone to soluble or insoluble. ... AND then to make things even more complicated.... you can feed an ingredient that "technically" should not agree with an EPI dog, but in limited amounts it may be okay or even helpful... or not.....


For example... PEAS... we noticed that our EPI dogs that were doing well on foods all of a sudden more and more started having set-backs... come to find out... it appeared that dog food companies changed the ingredient composition and started included more peas and reducing the more expensive ingredients (like sweet potato for example). So after a while... we started connecting the dots and discovered that it "appeared" that the increase of peas in many of the dog diets might be why our dogs all of a sudden started having issues.  


\Well... EPi4Dogs has worked with, collaborated with and has also just communicates with many veterinarian researchers on EPI not only in the USA, but around the world.  ONe of our contacts, Dr. ANne Mosseler from Hannover Unviersity in Germany contacted me with a study she just completed where they were testing various fibers on EPI mini pigs (all her EPI studies are done on EPI mini pigs) ... see our Fiber page for her research http://www.epi4dogs.com/fiberinthediet.htm )and they found that out of all the fibers they tried, that peas caused a huge problem compared to the other fibers.... we compared notes and i told her we anecdotally observed the same thing in our EPI dogs... but that it also appears to depend on how much pea ingredients are in the food... a little appears to be fine with most of our dogs... but too many different versions of pea content appear to cause a problem. (gas/ farting/tummy noises and then SID occurs)... this is the same thing Dr. Mosseler found in her research.


So... we now "suggest" to folks when first starting out.... maybe avoid commercial food that has too many types of pea ingredients on the label.... even thou it might be fine.. jsut when starting out, maybe best to avoid and try at a later date when dog is stable to see if it will or will not agree with your pup.


I am guessing by now i have made your head spin...................there is more that i can get into (SCFA and SID/gut flora imbalance.. but i am guessing that would make your head explode right about now- -so will save that for later!)........ i jsut wanted to share what we recommend and why BUT that our recommendations are only a recommdndation.... and that depending on your pup's indiviudal EPi condition and gut flora imbalance.... try the protocol that we recommend but be prepared to have to "tweak" things.................

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 19, 2017 at 10:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Evon Carpenter
Member
Posts: 5

Thank you for this information. I find it very helpful!

May 19, 2017 at 6:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 16831

Hi Evon.... you are very welcome... although i do apologize for posting so much info.  I do so because i always worry about giving a simple cut & dry answer when i know in reality with these dogs.... very often you have to start with the recommended protocol but then you might have to "tweak" things tuntil you get the right balacne of the protocol for your dog.... 

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

May 20, 2017 at 9:25 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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