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ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Carly is our dear sweet 3 year old dog, rescued from a SC shelter at 4 months age. Bithday was 12/4.

She was diagnosed with diabetes insipidus in 2016 and gets eyedrops twice daily for that. It's under control.

Maybe 6-9 months ago she became picky about food, and we tried alternative dry foods keeping the same supplements, Mighty Dog beef dinner and/or Evangers Beef/Bacon.

~4 months ago she developed intermittent diarrhea, with unusually large yelllow stools and was gassy, with yellow watery excretions.

We stopped all treats and noticed some improvement, and at some point read that a ground turkey & pumpkin diet was a good remedy. Started that, got improvement. So, we researched and purchased Merrick Turkey/Sweet potato dry food (5 stars. Well...introducing that was not good. Bad D again. So, quickly back on turkey/pumpkin. 

Finally went to a new local vet on Nov 6. (We had just moved here, in August).  The vet found nothing bad in a rudimentary fecal test and concluded  Carly had a diet issue. Neither she nor we commented on her weight (33 lbs) down from usual 38-40. (We had thought the weight loss was a result of the intestinal issue.) The vet recommended a probiotic. which we started to use.

But Carly proceeded to lose weight, now at an alarming rate and we hustled back to the vet on 12/26. Same practice, different vet. Holy Moly!! Weight down to 26.6 lbs! from old normal 38-40 and down from 33 just 3 weeks ago! She was skin and bones. Eating ravenously and starving!

I had done some research and had learned a little about EPI and SIBO. So - I immediately insisted on getting blood tests, starting her on Metronizadole, getting a B-12 shot, and doing tests more detailed to see if she has EPI. Vet agreed and added that she would get a more thorough test of the (new) poop sample.  I asked for an X-ray and suggested an ultrasound, but the vet said that they use an outsider to do ultrasound but would start setting that up,,,but we could cancel if the tests tell what is really going on. And she did the X-ray (no trouble found).

Well, next day the Antech blood work came back and was 'all normal'. (But, I did notice the amylase was exactly at the minimum of the range.) Will be longer to get the extended test for EPI and B-12 etc. 

A local pet store suggested raw goats milk, which I bought and started giving Carly.

Then we got the poop analysis results. Clostridium. Vet wanted me to add Xylan to the med cocktail, along with Metronizadole. I went in to pick up the Xylan and weighed Carly...up to 30 pounds!! Yay! Something is working. Decided to buy but hold on the Xylan. 

Got home and ordered Biocase Plus, just in case the test for EPI is positive.

Learned that we won't get the blood test result till next week sometime. Biocase arrived today so tonight I started her on that. Thinking of that low amylase reading. 

So - fingers crossed. Meanwhile we are all ears. This dog is precious and we dont want to miss doing somegthing we should be doing.

We'll appreciate any words of wisdom...and Thanks in advance for any feedback. Maybe I gave TMI for a newbie with non-diagnosed EPI.

Tells you the level of caring we have for our little girl.

Dave and Linda

 

December 30, 2017 at 7:53 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Bin
Member
Posts: 2059

Hello Dave, Linda and Carly!  Sounds like Carly hit the jackpot with you two!  And it sounds like you are on the right track.  I'm not familiar with Bio-Case but the normal ratio of enzyme to kibble is 1 tsp to 1 cup kibble (a little less if canned food); add some water, stire and let sit about 20 minutes and stir again and serve.  It doesn't hurt to treat "as if" until you get the full results.  

If you will notice I have a "signature" after my post.  If you can go into your profile and do the same it is helpful....all your info is in one place and it makes it easier to make suggestions.  You have provided much of the info needed but if your posting gets a lot of responses it is easier to see the info in the signture instead of having to read back to your original posts.  Type of info that is helpful:  age, name and breed (or best guess)...goal weight and current weight.  Lab results for cTLI (EPI test), cobalamin (B12) and folate (can indicate SID)...any other medical diagnosis and medications.  Type (kibble, canned, home cooked, raw, etc.) and brand is also helpful and amount of food per meal.

Glad to see some weight gain...I know it is terrifying to watch the weight loss and it seems to happen overnight...and the smaller the pup the scarier.  I know the waiting can be hard but I think using the enzymes and what else you are doing right now will help and once you have the blood results, post them here and we can let you know what our experience shows.  We have found some pups are not "technically" EPI but headed in that direction and using enzymes can help.

Have a great New Year!  Look forward to reading updates!

--

Terry

Mom of three EPI Shiloh Shepherds: 

Pharaoh born Nov. 2007 and dx with epi December 2009.   Pharaoh weighed 62.4 lbs. (15 lb. weight loss) when diagnosed in 12/2009.

Weight 10/31/11 was 76.6; 85lbs on 9/22/12; 85.5 lbs. on 11/13/14.

Received six weeks of B12 shots Jan-Feb 2010 but his B12 on 8/10/2010 was only 232. So started weekly shots at home, which we continue to give. 

His older half sister is Taiko born Sept. 2006  and was dx with epi June 2010.  Since she has severe bilateral hip dysplasia she had always been on the thin side.  Taiko's weight was 70.7 lbs. in June 2010 (time of diagnosis; about a 10 lb. weight loss).

Weight on 10/31/11 was 80.4 and on 9/22/12 was 82.4 lbs.  Weight 11/13/14 was 83 lbs.  B12 was 211 in June 2010 so started six weeks of shots and was only 293 on 8/10/10.  She receives B12 shots weekly at home.  B12 in September 2014 was over 1,000.

Both are fed twice a day and we use Merrick BG brand: 1 1/2  cups kibble in the morning with 1/2 can dog food with 4 crushed tablets and in the evening 1 1/2 cups to 2 cups kibble with 1/2 can dog food  with 4 crushed tablets. 

Moku was born 4/15/14 does not have epi.  His grandfather is Taiko's and Pharaoh's father (through his mother).  On 11/05/14 his weight was 78 lbs, on 12/11/14 he was 85.7 and on his first birthday 15 April 2015: 90.2 lbs.

December 30, 2017 at 11:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Hi David, Linda & Carly and Welcome to our EPI family!

Carly is very lucky to have you and Linda as her new human guardians!!!   Good job!

Just by the symptoms alone, It "sounds" like it could be EPI... but excellent that (if i understand our post correctly) that you went aheand and did the TLI blood test to confirm EPI, if that is what is going on.


Bio Case is the corerct enzymes (if this is what you are using: https://www.petcarerx.com/bio-case-v-homeopathic/10800#11929 ; )

.... although the lipase countent is not as stong as many of the other brands- -but it is sufficienct.   Just in case Carly does have EPI.... if/when you need to give enzymes with every meal...you might want to check out Enzyme Diane's enzymes.... Many people use her enzymes because they are 1/3 the cost of brand name enzymes. I have been usingher enzymes for 11 years and am VERY happy... as is my wallet!  Use 1 level tsp per 1 cup of food, add enough room temp water to moisten everything, let sit for 20 minutes or a bit more to avoid any possible mouth sores.


Good that you filled the Tylan prescription.... Tylan tends to work better on SID on most dogs but if the Metro works, then you are good to go--but still hang onto the Tylan.  Too often we see where Metro doesn't always work....  Sounds like you have an EXCELLENT vet.  Kudos!


Then there is B12...another easy fix and maintenance but too often over looked.  If your pup turns out to have EPI, we'll help you with this too

If this is EPI.... finding the right food can be a challenge.  What we recommend is to start with a low fiber content food that uses something like sweet portato, potato or tapioca as the carb/fiber and that the fiber content is 4% or less.  HOWEVER... just because 1 brand works great for one EPI dog, that is no guarantee... that's also why we suggest starting with jsut a small bag/ can of food... and try it for 3-5 days or a week or two.... just to see if it helps or hinders. 


AND keep a journal.... record everything as this will help you (and your vet) identify what  agrees or not with your pup- -tedious... but oh so VERY helpful!!!.... as this will greatly help you figure out what diet composition works best for your dog even if our pup does not have EPI!.  

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

December 31, 2017 at 1:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Hi David, Linda & Carly and Welcome to our EPI family!

Carly is very lucky to have you and Linda as her new human guardians!!!   Good job!

Just by the symptoms alone, It "sounds" like it could be EPI... but excellent that (if i understand our post correctly) that you went aheand and did the TLI blood test to confirm EPI, if that is what is going on.


Bio Case is the corerct enzymes (if this is what you are using: https://www.petcarerx.com/bio-case-v-homeopathic/10800#11929 ; )

.... although the lipase countent is not as stong as many of the other brands- -but it is sufficienct.   Just in case Carly does have EPI.... if/when you need to give enzymes with every meal...you might want to check out Enzyme Diane's enzymes.... Many people use her enzymes because they are 1/3 the cost of brand name enzymes. I have been usingher enzymes for 11 years and am VERY happy... as is my wallet!  Use 1 level tsp per 1 cup of food, add enough room temp water to moisten everything, let sit for 20 minutes or a bit more to avoid any possible mouth sores.


Good that you filled the Tylan prescription.... Tylan tends to work better on SID on most dogs but if the Metro works, then you are good to go--but still hang onto the Tylan.  Too often we see where Metro doesn't always work....  Sounds like you have an EXCELLENT vet.  Kudos!


Then there is B12...another easy fix and maintenance but too often over looked.  If your pup turns out to have EPI, we'll help you with this too

If this is EPI.... finding the right food can be a challenge.  What we recommend is to start with a low fiber content food that uses something like sweet portato, potato or tapioca as the carb/fiber and that the fiber content is 4% or less.  HOWEVER... just because 1 brand works great for one EPI dog, that is no guarantee... that's also why we suggest starting with jsut a small bag/ can of food... and try it for 3-5 days or a week or two.... just to see if it helps or hinders. 


AND keep a journal.... record everything as this will help you (and your vet) identify what  agrees or not with your pup- -tedious... but oh so VERY helpful!!!.... as this will greatly help you figure out what diet composition works best for your dog even if our pup does not have EPI!.  

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

December 31, 2017 at 1:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3134

Hi David, Linda and Carly - welcome to our EPI family.  It sound like Carly is one lucky little pup to have such dedicated, loving parents.  So glad you ordered the EPI test.  When you get the results be sure to post them here (TLI, B12 an Folate) so we can better offer suggestions.

If it does turn out to be EPI - don't worry it is managable and we will all help you along the way.

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


December 31, 2017 at 3:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Thanks to all for the responses!  I will go fix my profile... The Vet called and indeed Carly has the THI marker.  We had already gotten the BioCase Plus, and had started her on it. But the poor girl is still sooo hungry - wating that 20 -30 mins is torture. We are trying to figure good ways to deal with that (one of us takes her out while the other makes the meal). So far that has worked but if it were raining (cats, not dogs), well...

Which led me to a question the answer to which I will look for here ..Could one make a bunch of the meal ahead, treat it with the enzymes (we see that it winds up looking 'digested already'), refrigerate that stuff, then bring it out for the next couple meals, say, letting it reach room temp (hmmm could one microwave?) to enable further digestive action? You veterans probably have tried everything! 

Oh yes, the vet said that the other blood measurements (with the extended blood test for THI), such as B-12, were all fine.

OK, now to read the posted replies under a magnifying glass!  Thanks again for your support, all!!!

--

Carly: 3 yrs old on 12/4/2017. Rescued from MAMAS shelter in Bamberg SC at 4 months age. She developed diabetes insipudus in 2016 and gets daily eyedrops of desmopressin for that.

Her weight until the onset of EPI was around 38-40. In Nov/Dec 2017 her weight dropped precipitously to 26.6 lbs, making us crazy scared. Fortunately we got a vet who voiced EPI as a possibility and we were so worried we ordered tests for anything and everything, as well as X-rays, and antibiotics etc. Told the vet to 'pull out all the stops"!

At home Googled EPI and  found this site. Thank Heavens! Reading made me suspect EPI would be confirmed. Biased toward action I ordered BioCase Plus from Amazon for speediest possible delivery, never mind the week's wait for the test results (holidays involved, too) . So, here we are. Just now went and weighed her: 32.4 !!! Whooppee! (written Jan 5, 2017)8) Oh yes, she tested positive for Clostridium and that was fixed with Metronizadole (10 days @ 500 mg/day).

I will hafta get the detailed data on THI and B-12 readings and whatever else they measured in thae $225 supplemental blood test. 

Poops started at Stage 6, now (1/2018) a solid (forgive the pun) Stage 3.


January 5, 2018 at 2:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Ahhh... so it is EPI.... the good news is that EPI is manageable if you learn to treat the whole dog.


Regarding preparing the food ahead of time, yes it can be done but i personally suggest not to do that because you will need to take the food out of the frig because the enzymes in it are cold.... and cold inactivates the enzymes.... so either this will work because your dog may not need the full effectiveness of the enzymes OR .....it may appear to work in the beginning but then all of a sudden a month down the road your dog develops SID... and this was building up because not all the enyzymes were activate cause the food was cold... OR.... it won't work from the begining.

SOme people have tried this without any issues... but my thought is why test fate.... ultimately thou it is your decision.

 

 

Also...if you plan on warming the food it will take just as long for the refrigerated meal with enzymes to become room temperature if you decide to warm the food since you can't nuke or cook it but rather let it slowly warm up...... might as well just perpare it from scratch.   

That "fine" B12.... please ask your vet for the actual B12 value... it needs to be in the upper mid range which is high 500s to 600's.  or else you still need to supplement even if in low normal range.


Regarding other values, your vet most likely was referring to the Folate score and thinks that your dog doesn't have SID because the Folate was in the normal range.  This is no longer used to assess SID. Pretty much all EPI dogs have SID ... some display symptoms (in which case you will need to be proactive and treat) while others show no symptoms (in which case you dont have to do anything).  Just don't get surprised if a few weeks/month.... all of a sudden it appears like the enzymes stopped working and all the issues have come back. If that happens, please know that the enzyems are fine, but what you are dealing with is SID and in short you just have to get it under control... We try a variety of things first, but then often these dogs end up on Tylan antibiotic powder to get SID under control... goving forward many do not ahve to stay on an antibiotic, you just have to find the right balance of food and enzymes to keep SID well managed.     do try to keep a journal that will really help!

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

January 5, 2018 at 2:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Thanks for the info!  We do have a 10 day supply of Tylan powder so we are ready.

Is SID the same as SIBO? The metronizadole seems to have cured the clostridium inection.

Her poops are clearly Stage 3 in the diagram you have on the site.

Dave

--

Carly: 3 yrs old on 12/4/2017. Rescued from MAMAS shelter in Bamberg SC at 4 months age. She developed diabetes insipudus in 2016 and gets daily eyedrops of desmopressin for that.

Her weight until the onset of EPI was around 38-40. In Nov/Dec 2017 her weight dropped precipitously to 26.6 lbs, making us crazy scared. Fortunately we got a vet who voiced EPI as a possibility and we were so worried we ordered tests for anything and everything, as well as X-rays, and antibiotics etc. Told the vet to 'pull out all the stops"!

At home Googled EPI and  found this site. Thank Heavens! Reading made me suspect EPI would be confirmed. Biased toward action I ordered BioCase Plus from Amazon for speediest possible delivery, never mind the week's wait for the test results (holidays involved, too) . So, here we are. Just now went and weighed her: 32.4 !!! Whooppee! (written Jan 5, 2017)8) Oh yes, she tested positive for Clostridium and that was fixed with Metronizadole (10 days @ 500 mg/day).

I will hafta get the detailed data on THI and B-12 readings and whatever else they measured in thae $225 supplemental blood test. 

Poops started at Stage 6, now (1/2018) a solid (forgive the pun) Stage 3.


January 5, 2018 at 9:10 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Oops - didnt mean to repeat the history...and I read more, learned about SID, different from SIBO. Ordered B-12 from WonderLabs. Seems like it cannot hurt and good to have on hand.

January 5, 2018 at 10:14 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Do you folks recommend grinding up the dry food kibbles before mixing with the enzymes so there is better contact? The ones we use are still hard nuggets after a half hour.  TIA!

January 7, 2018 at 8:12 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Administrator
Posts: 3719
There are some folks who grind the food but a lot use whole kibble and just stir the food before serving to make sure of enzyme coverage. Some dogs like the crunchy kibble as opposed to oatmeal consistency.
--

   Jill-  Washington State

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria,high blood pressure, hypothyroid, spinal stenosis

diet of  hard boiled eggs, macaroni,  RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow, 1- 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day ,  Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn sirup for arthritis, .1mg Adequan weekly by shot. 75mg Tylan 2x./day for SIBO

Optimmune for Dry eyes

 Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

TJ is the newest addition.  He is in the bottom picture with Kiya.  He was born 7/05/2015. 

I am not a vet, just a pet owner sharing what experiences I have had in helping my dogs with other pet owners.  If you have an emergency please call your vet.





January 7, 2018 at 10:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 959

In the beginning, I tried grinding kibble, but my dog hated mush... It's all about the dog... A saying we have here is if you've met one EPI dog, well then you've met just one. They are all different! 

There is no advantage to grinding, although some swear by it.  Try it if you want, or don't... Your choice.

Donna

January 7, 2018 at 5:55 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3134

Hi there - sorry I'm late to welcoming you.  You said the B12 is "good to have on hand" - please know that B12 supplementing is for life with EPI dogs as long as there is not another medical condition where too much B12 would be an issue.  The key is finding the right amount of B12 for your dog.  Mine gets 2 WonderLab pills a day - when I tried to reduce him to 1 pill a day he lost 6lbs - so I went back to 2 pills a day and he gained the weight back.  I also recommend getting the B12 tested after you decide what/how much B12 you are going to give so you have an idea if it's enough. 

I am one who grinds my food only because I'm a helicopter type mom and thought by grinding the food it would help with digestion - there is NO research to back this and i have NO proof that it does.  If I were you I would keep the kibble whole and see how your pup does so it's one less thing you have to worry with.

SID is the same as SIBO - they have just changed the name.  Please share with your vet the information on this site regarding Tylan and SID as a 10 day course will not be enough - we recommend a 45 day course and then slowly wean off.

Keep a detailed log of everything you give and everything that comes out so you know what's working and what's not.  And don't worry - you're not alone in this - we are all here to help :)

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


January 7, 2018 at 7:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Thanks, all!  I tried grinding the kibble this morning and she gobbled it down no differently. But it seemed from reading about the enzymes that they need to be in contact with all the food molecules (at least in my imagination). But we'll check the poops and see if anything changes. Asked the vet to mail me the actual blood test results so I can see the B-12 level. Do you folks recommend regular blood tests to check B-12 level? Frequency? Also - if the pancreas is dysfunctional/failing - is there a high risk of future diabetes which I understand is a pancreatic endocrine insufficiency? EPI is said to be idiopathic...comes on for no identifiable reason. Same with endocrine PI?

January 8, 2018 at 7:12 AM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Cobalimin  >1000pg/ml High vs rannge of 249-733

Folate  5.78 ng/ml         Low vs range of 6.5 - 11.5

TLI  <1.0ug/L                Low vs range of 5-25

So: no need for B-12?

--

Carly: 3 yrs old on 12/4/2017. Rescued from MAMAS shelter in Bamberg SC at 4 months age. She developed diabetes insipudus in 2016 and gets daily eyedrops of desmopressin for that.

Her weight until the onset of EPI was around 38-40. In Nov/Dec 2017 her weight dropped precipitously to 26.6 lbs, making us crazy scared. Fortunately we got a vet who voiced EPI as a possibility and we were so worried we ordered tests for anything and everything, as well as X-rays, and antibiotics etc. Told the vet to 'pull out all the stops"!

At home Googled EPI and  found this site. Thank Heavens! Reading made me suspect EPI would be confirmed. Biased toward action I ordered BioCase Plus from Amazon for speediest possible delivery, never mind the week's wait for the test results (holidays involved, too) . So, here we are. Just now went and weighed her: 32.4 !!! Whooppee! (written Jan 5, 2017)8) Oh yes, she tested positive for Clostridium and that was fixed with Metronizadole (10 days @ 500 mg/day).

I will hafta get the detailed data on THI and B-12 readings and whatever else they measured in thae $225 supplemental blood test. 

Poops started at Stage 6, now (1/2018) a solid (forgive the pun) Stage 3.


January 8, 2018 at 10:30 AM Flag Quote & Reply

ParSeeker
Member
Posts: 8

Turned out that the weight gain I reported - from 30 to 32.4 was more a function of using a different scale than reality.

Using the same previous scale now she is creeping up, but is only 30.75 at best. A few ounces every couple days. That's more plausible, anyway. Actually a pretty good weight for her...can feel the ribs, but she looks very healthy, says the vet.


January 9, 2018 at 8:21 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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