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Forum Home > General Discussion > Tylan vs Pre/Probiotics

GSD16
Member
Posts: 2

Hi all. I am looking for some pointers and suggestions but first of all would like to thank epi4dogs and all those who contribute to this site for the information. 

We have a GSD pup named Berlin who is 1 year and 2 months old. He was diagnosed with EPI about a month ago. After 2 weeks of diarrhea, we've tried different diets, then a trip to the vet where a blood test showed cTLI <1. The vet prescribed Viokase, which didn't really help even after doubling the initial dose. Two weeks after Viokase and now change, the vet added Metronidazole. We've administered that for 7 days before returning to the vet. At this point I've read a bit on epi4dogs and asked the vet about Tylan, and an order of Pancreatine x6 has arrived. So we've switched to the powder and Tylan. Two days later we got formed but soft stool. Currently, the dog is on Tylan twice a day 1/8 tbsp (as per the vet), Pancreatine x6 with every meal (3 times a day), and Healthy Gut by Adored Beast (pre/probiotic) once a day and B12 shot once a week.

What I'm wondering about is, do I really need the Tylan. I don't think that 2 days of antibiotics would have such effect. I think it was the switch to powder that helped. Should I take him off the antibiotics or administer the full course? There was no test done to warrant Tylan or Metonidazole, rather it was prescribed out of lack of options. Also, the dose of Tylan that was given by the vet is half of the recommended dose on this site.

While on the topic of Tylan, I would like to know if any one has any experience with FOS? Should I try pre/probiotics instead of Tylan?

Any information is greatly appreciated.

 

January 11, 2018 at 11:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Bin
Member
Posts: 2059

Welcome!  The antibiotics str needed to treat a bacterial overgrowth.  We recommend holding off on pro/pre biotics until the pups is stable for about 3 months.  Some dogs do well with them and others do not.  We used them for awhile but haven't used probiotics in a long time.  How much enzymes are you giving per cup of food?

--

Terry

Mom of three EPI Shiloh Shepherds: 

Pharaoh born Nov. 2007 and dx with epi December 2009.   Pharaoh weighed 62.4 lbs. (15 lb. weight loss) when diagnosed in 12/2009.

Weight 10/31/11 was 76.6; 85lbs on 9/22/12; 85.5 lbs. on 11/13/14.

Received six weeks of B12 shots Jan-Feb 2010 but his B12 on 8/10/2010 was only 232. So started weekly shots at home, which we continue to give. 

His older half sister is Taiko born Sept. 2006  and was dx with epi June 2010.  Since she has severe bilateral hip dysplasia she had always been on the thin side.  Taiko's weight was 70.7 lbs. in June 2010 (time of diagnosis; about a 10 lb. weight loss).

Weight on 10/31/11 was 80.4 and on 9/22/12 was 82.4 lbs.  Weight 11/13/14 was 83 lbs.  B12 was 211 in June 2010 so started six weeks of shots and was only 293 on 8/10/10.  She receives B12 shots weekly at home.  B12 in September 2014 was over 1,000.

Both are fed twice a day and we use Merrick BG brand: 1 1/2  cups kibble in the morning with 1/2 can dog food with 4 crushed tablets and in the evening 1 1/2 cups to 2 cups kibble with 1/2 can dog food  with 4 crushed tablets. 

Moku was born 4/15/14 does not have epi.  His grandfather is Taiko's and Pharaoh's father (through his mother).  On 11/05/14 his weight was 78 lbs, on 12/11/14 he was 85.7 and on his first birthday 15 April 2015: 90.2 lbs.

January 12, 2018 at 1:25 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Yes... please do continue to use the Tylan. Stay on the Tylan for 30-45 days. Do give the correct dose that is listed on the SID/SIBO page.... this will further improve the poo.  The Tylan is why you saw a difference. Some see a difference within 1 day on Tylan (this happened to us when there was no response to Metro and we switched to Tylan) while others will see a difference in a few days/week).   Regarding the FOS.... there is some very valid research to support the use of FOS to re-align the gut flora.... HOWEVER.... the problem is that too much will also cause a problem... so yes... try FOS, but the best thing is to NOT give Tylan and start up the FOS right away..... or else you will never know what really works and how much of which one is or is not working. 

My first suggestion would be to do the Tylan for the full regimen (45 days/twice day/ correct dosage).... about a week before your Tylan regimen will be completed... introduce FOS (use VERY little) and monitor your pup (gas, poops, etc) ... if all seems fine slightly increase over the course of a week continually monitoring. 

OR

Try stopping the Tylan and doing the FOS now... what are you using for FOS?  What we suggest is Slippery Elm powder, it has prebiotic properties in in and appears to work well in a majority of our dogs.... the revised dosage  for Slippery Elm powder is:  "Give Slippery Elm powder with breakfast and dinner meals. 1/8 tsp for dogs under 10lbs, ¼ tsp for dogs 10lbs to 30lbs, ½ tsp for dogs 30lbs to 80lbs, 3/4 tsp for dogs 80lbs to 100lbs, and 1 tsp for dog 100/+lbs. Mix in meal, add 1 to 2 tablespoons of water, mix and serve meal as you normally would. Incubating not necessary."  Please note that sometimes even LESS Slippery Elm powder works even better.


Since you are just starting this EPI journey, my first option would be the Tylan first and then introduce FOS.  Also, my guess is that you understand that FOS is a Prebiotic (a food for bacteria)... not a Probitoic (which is bacteria- -unfortunately one size does not fit all).   What they are now discovering is that EPI dogs with SID not only do not have enough of a variety of bacteria in their gut, they also do not have enough bacteria overall.  Just giving them a probiotic is not always the answer... that is one of the reasons why prebiotics appear to work - -it is food for the bacteria.... and with regards to feeding bacteria (good and bad, although mostly good) surprisingly even a certain amount of bad bacteria is a good thing as it does play a part in everything functioning properly.


--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

January 12, 2018 at 10:09 AM Flag Quote & Reply

GSD16
Member
Posts: 2

Thanks for the replies.

Currently we give 3/4 tsp of enzyme per cup of food, and 1/8tsp of Tylan twice a day. I realize that the dozes are below the suggested norm. Should I increase the enzyme to 1 tsp and Tylan to 1/4tsp (he is 75lbs) at the same time? Increase one and monitor? 

We also give a 1/2 sp of "Healthy Gut" powder daily, it was recommended by a pet store before we had him diagnosed. The powder contains digestive enxymes and pre+probiotics. We kept giving it because the store told us that it would not cause any harm. Should i try to remove that?

January 12, 2018 at 4:59 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

First i would increase the enymes to 1 tsp per 1 cup of food.... and watch things for jsut a few days (maybe jsut 2 days) ....to  see if this improves anything at all.... do this jsut for your own information gathering of how your pup responds to things  so you can build on what the right balance of EPI protocol is needed for your pup.


Then i would indeed increase the Tylan  to 1/4 tsp per meal (breakfast & dinner)   ....i suspect this is what is most needed- -but the best way to do things after you started the EPI treatment is to then always try to do  things one at a time... hence the suggestion above as the 1st thing to try ) 


Regarding the Healthy Gut stuff..... probably very good product BUT.... when there is a problem that is not getting fixed, we always suggest stripping the "additives" and then adding things one at a time AFTER you assess each "tweak"... like in this case.... #1 increase the enzymes by 1/4 tsp, #2 increase the Tylan, give the increased Tylan 3 to 5 days to asses... if things are or have improved.... give the Tylan for 45 days.... in the 3rd week  try adding back the Healthy Gut.... only be sure to only start with 1/2 the dose.... and monitor poos, burps, gas, etc.... to see if this is causing a set back or not... if not.... then slowly increase over a week or two.... and then by the time you stop the Tylan the Healthy Gut should be in place and this may help not having to put your pup back on Tylan from the often common relapse........


Please keep us posted  AND keep notes (EPI log/journal) cause you kind of have to keep tract of all the "tweaks" to learn what works and doesn't work for your pup :)

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

January 13, 2018 at 9:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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