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Forum Home > General Discussion > Weight loss in treated EPI dog

Sherry
Member
Posts: 13

It's been a little while since I last posted.  Have a question I can't find a ready answer to.  Maddie has been diagnosed EPI and she has been on enzymes from Diane for a couple years now, I think.   She is losing weight again and acting hungry all the time again.

I added Milkweed suppliment, Plaque Off suppliment for teeth and the antibiotic for SIBO recently in amounts indicated for her weight.  I had her in for a checkup in January and things were fine except for B12.  Vet ordered three B12 shots to be given 2 wks apart, so we did that.  Vet also said results showed SIBO again, but he has never advised or prescribed antibiotics for her. A very sweet EPI4dogs member sent me the antibiotic needed to combat the SIBO after first diagnosis and recently I heard a lot of digestive noises coming from Maddie and began giving her the antibiotic again.  The story is in the poop, but the poop seems to be a good color and looking normal. 

I have the suppliment to give her B12 with Intrinsic Factor, but haven't started that yet.  Do I stop the Milkweed and Plaque Off suppliments, start the B12 with Intrinsic factor? I'm at a loss.  I don't want to upset the delicate balance of this disease, but this weight loss is something I haven't encountered since she was diagnosed.  She hasn't lost more than a pound or two, but it's enough to cause concern and make her collar looser.  I am ready to take her back in and get retested, but wanted to hear from the forum to see what ya'll think.

Maddie's mom





February 12, 2018 at 11:54 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paige's Guardian
Member
Posts: 88

It sounds like you have her back on an antibiotic, is that correct?  And, have you started the B12 intrinsic factor?  If not, probably good to either keep up with the injections or capsules.   She should be in the high range for B12 when retested.  And, antibiotic, if Tylan, should be a 6-weeek course of treatment. Check out the SID/SIBO tab at the top of the page.  You can print that info out for your vet. 

I am not familiar with the supplements that you are giving her so, not sure what to say.....but others will likely chime in. 

February 13, 2018 at 6:02 AM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Member
Posts: 3589

Hello we have something in common...the name oh yes and EPI...over the years as they age we sometimes have to increase the enzymes just by a pinch to get them back on track that can be the cause of the SIBO...and b12 well we gave that for life everyday otherwise Maddie would loose weight. So try a small increase in enzymes 1/8th and see how that goes.

--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


February 13, 2018 at 7:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Administrator
Posts: 7385
One of the biggest issues of SIBO/SID IS that it depletes any cobalamin b12 that the animal may have as reserve through injections etc , therefore you need to address it ASAP , the antibiotic if choice here is Tylan and it is dosed by the digs weight, see the downloads at the top of the page, I think you can get it on line in the States, let us know how it goes
--



 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


Adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

Enzymes-Panzym 3 gram per meal twice daily ( 3/4 teaspoon ) 

B12 injection once every three weeks

One Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

One Antepsin before bedtime

Allergies to beef, pork, chicken. and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

37 kilos as of 10th June 2014

40.65 kilos, 89.6 pounds as of 3rd March 2015

Vet says she is now processing her food correctly

Very proud of all of us

 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"


I am not a vet, nor have veterinary experience, but have lived and breathed EPI for 51/2 years, and hope I can bring some support to others, as others have to me.

 

February 13, 2018 at 10:30 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Terry Bin
Member
Posts: 2048

Hello Sherry....agree with what is written here.  As our dogs have aged they need a bit more enzyme so I would start by increasing enzymes by 1/8th teaspoon.  Taiko's poop has always been perfect (pretty much) so I can't go on that but weight gain/loss, etc. is more telling for her...you may have the same issue.  Is your pup acting hungry?  May also need a bit more food...have you made any changes in the food lately?

--

Terry

Mom of three EPI Shiloh Shepherds: 

Pharaoh born Nov. 2007 and dx with epi December 2009.   Pharaoh weighed 62.4 lbs. (15 lb. weight loss) when diagnosed in 12/2009.

Weight 10/31/11 was 76.6; 85lbs on 9/22/12; 85.5 lbs. on 11/13/14.

Received six weeks of B12 shots Jan-Feb 2010 but his B12 on 8/10/2010 was only 232. So started weekly shots at home, which we continue to give. 

His older half sister is Taiko born Sept. 2006  and was dx with epi June 2010.  Since she has severe bilateral hip dysplasia she had always been on the thin side.  Taiko's weight was 70.7 lbs. in June 2010 (time of diagnosis; about a 10 lb. weight loss).

Weight on 10/31/11 was 80.4 and on 9/22/12 was 82.4 lbs.  Weight 11/13/14 was 83 lbs.  B12 was 211 in June 2010 so started six weeks of shots and was only 293 on 8/10/10.  She receives B12 shots weekly at home.  B12 in September 2014 was over 1,000.

Both are fed twice a day and we use Merrick BG brand: 1 1/2  cups kibble in the morning with 1/2 can dog food with 4 crushed tablets and in the evening 1 1/2 cups to 2 cups kibble with 1/2 can dog food  with 4 crushed tablets. 

Moku was born 4/15/14 does not have epi.  His grandfather is Taiko's and Pharaoh's father (through his mother).  On 11/05/14 his weight was 78 lbs, on 12/11/14 he was 85.7 and on his first birthday 15 April 2015: 90.2 lbs.

February 13, 2018 at 7:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3076

Hi Sherry - the first thing I was going to suggest is increasing the enzymes a tad.  We have found over that some EPI dogs as they age need just a tad bit more enzymes.  So I would suggest as Terry did to increase 1/8tsp and see how the poops look.  As for the B12, do you know what the level was?  I would go ahead and start the pills with Intrinsic factor as long as there is no underlying medical issues where too much B12 is bad, they will pee out the extra.

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


February 13, 2018 at 8:08 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Sherry
Member
Posts: 13

Thanks for all the replys EPI members:)  I had thought about extra enzymes and started heaping the 1/2 tsp of enzymes a bit.  This morning before we left she pooped and it was lighter, golden brown, but still formed.  I bought the Vit B12 with intrinsic factor awhile ago and have just never given it.  My bottle is capsules, so not sure if that's how it comes or if I ordered the wrong thing.  I bought a micro scale for the antibiotic,which is Tylan, so can probably use that to dosage properly for the B12.  I just hope my micro scale has that particular weight sign on it, because I have no idea what unit of measure the funny little U next to a small g stands for, and it isn't on my keyboard anywhere:)   We are on week 3 of the Tylan right now.

I took the results from the last lab to my local vet and didn't think to make a copy of it, so I don't know how low her B12 was.  Thank you for giving specific info so I know what I'm looking for.  You all should get a certificate for doggie chemistry;)  My daughter the Bio-Chemist did not get her math and science gene from me!  I do think the Vit B12 is probably the answer.

 I'm also extremely interested in the results of what causes EPI in the study going on now.  We moved to a place where the owner had been dumping oil, gas, chemicals for 30 years.  We didn't know this when we moved here, and most of the places he dumped are covered in gravel.  We think the toxic stuff here may have set Maddie off on getting EPI.  Or the shock of the move or both.  She's a high strung Poodle/Pomeranian.

On the food front, we feed her an amount she rarely eats in one day, so she is getting enough to eat. On days when she seems she is hungry again in the evening, we will make up a 1/2 batch of food for her.  I did realize that possibly her food wasn't warm enough for the enzymes to work since we were adding refidgerated canned dog food to her dry food with some water and leaving it on a warming area for the 20 minutes.  Then I recently started heating the canned food & water before adding the dry food and enzymes. Have to look up safe and unsafe temps for the enzymes.  Yeast is same way - make the water too hot and the yeast won't rise.

Thanks again for all the advise.  Calling the vet and asking just isn't the same as asking this forum - unless the vet has treated a lot of EPI, they don't know what all of you know.  What's really cool is that all of you are like me in that we research the problem to infinite details to understand the disease and have the knowledge to understand the vet when they make suggestions.  Since my vet has never suggested antibiotics for Maddie when the SIBO has been present, even when asked about it, I have taken advise from this forum and administered it to her.  Some things don't get better when treated only on one portion of the problem. So, again, thank you all.

Sherry (Maddie's mom)

February 14, 2018 at 9:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marilyn Marinelli
Member
Posts: 863

Hi Sherry,  If you dog's B12 is low I would start using the B12 you bought. "Vit B12 with intrinsic factor awhile ago and have just never given it. My bottle is capsules, so not sure if that's how it comes or if I ordered the wrong thing"

The capsules are fine.  I have used this for almost 7 years and has kept my dogs B12 level nice and high and works well. I give my dog two a day one at each meal in with her food.  


February 14, 2018 at 9:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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