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LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

Good evening to everyone. I have an 8 years old English setter (rescue). His epi was diagnosed when he was 4/5 months old (tli <1.0). I'mhere because I'd like a lot of food advice. Recently We did the ecography and only has air, nothing to worry about the rest. At each meal it administers pancreatic enzymes in pellets, no powder (lypex). At the time b12 high, last year we made dobetin bites because it was very very low. Its feeding for three months is: dried horse meat, sweet potatoes, coconut oil or salmon. I add probiotics. its weight, however, has diminished. first with industrial food defecated up to 5 times a day, since I changed feeding only 2 and it is much more peaceful. What can I do to make him take weight? Thanks for help

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March 28, 2018 at 4:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Hi Laura,

With EPi dogs, you do not want to over-do with carbs to pack on the weight. What you might want to try is increasing the protein (horsemeat) and the other thing you can try is to add another small meal to the daily regimen (with enzymes included)


I am confused on your B12 statement "At the time b12 high, last year we made dobetin bites because it was very very low." 

B12 can plummet very quickly....and.... it can greatly affect weight. If not sufficient, the weight can be a struggle.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 28, 2018 at 5:44 PM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Administrator
Posts: 3658

Hi Laura i to would perhaps try a meat with a bit more fat in it...but i also wonder if the B12 has slipped my gal couldnt hold or in fact she didnt gain any weight because her B12 was so low....you can import the B12 tablets from chemeyes into Italy i have posted the link you need to ensure that any injections are the correct form of B12.

https://www.chemeyes.co.uk/b12intrinsicfactor/

--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


March 29, 2018 at 5:08 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

thank you. I used the chemeyes b12 tablets but I suspended them because b12 was good. Maybe I could try to give fatter meat and add a meal. thanks for your valuable advice

March 29, 2018 at 8:19 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Administrator
Posts: 3719
Welcome to the forum. Do you have access to eggs? Eggs are a great source of protein and have fat in them as well. Dogs usually love eggs. I do not feed them raw but I hard boil them then peel and chop one up for each dog on their kibble. They also love them scrambled.
--

   Jill-  Washington State

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria,high blood pressure, hypothyroid, spinal stenosis

diet of  hard boiled eggs, macaroni,  RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow, 1- 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day ,  Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn sirup for arthritis, .1mg Adequan weekly by shot. 75mg Tylan 2x./day for SIBO

Optimmune for Dry eyes

 Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

TJ is the newest addition.  He is in the bottom picture with Kiya.  He was born 7/05/2015. 

I am not a vet, just a pet owner sharing what experiences I have had in helping my dogs with other pet owners.  If you have an emergency please call your vet.





March 29, 2018 at 10:02 AM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Administrator
Posts: 3658

Maddie was on B12 all her life as are most dogs on here they pee out any excess so it doesnt hurt unless there is another condition going on...if you could look at a higher fat food or an additional meal  that would be great.With enzymes as they age you need to increase the dose..it may be that what you were feeding before worked but the enzyme dose needed to be increased.

--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


March 29, 2018 at 12:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

do you only use enzymes in powder? I have only been one in capsules for 8 years. I fear that powder can create problems in the mouth. maybe I'm wrong. can you give me advice?

March 29, 2018 at 4:05 PM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Administrator
Posts: 3658

Hi Laura

Yes i used powder started with Lypex but it was to expensive ...chemeyes will also ship the powder to you if you look at there website they are really nice to deal with they had an EPI dog so can guide you all the way.Powder is easy because  you can adjust the dose...can i ask was your dog Dx by a test ?



--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


March 29, 2018 at 4:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

sorry, I'm Italian, I do not understand the question. what means "Dx"?

--
March 29, 2018 at 4:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Patsy
Member
Posts: 987

Dx means diagnosed.

My dog had mouth problems, she was a springer spaniel, like a setter she had a lot of loose skin round her mouth which caught the powder . I should have washed her lips after feeding.  I changed from lypex to the capsules made by  Chemeyes. I used the same amount as the Lypex. Much cheaper! 

You say you are happy with the food you use. If you add more fat or oil, you may need more enzyme.  Perhaps a bit more sweet potato could be added too, it is high in calories.  It is a balancing act with enzymes. 









--

Marti  Springer Spaniel, owned by Patsy, Sheffield, England.  She died age 12yrs 6mths  on 27/11/14 from heart failure. Diagnosed after three months, when she was 4 years old,she dropped from 24 kilos to 17 kg.  initially she also had protein losing enteropathy, treated with steroids, ,raw sores on back, obsessive thirst, bursting bowels and biadder, then stable after 2 years.   Developed another autoimmune problem with muscular myositis on head ( muscles wasted away, leaving gaunt hollows.)  She also suffered sometimes from  bottom end thrush, anal  gland infections, and recurrent SIBO treated with 4 weeks of oxytetracycline each time. 

Enzymes: Panzym caused mouth problems, resulting in tooth removal , as I didn't know at the time how caustic it was. I changed to one Lypex  then used VetUk Pancreatic Nutrient tablets, and one Chemeyes because it is half the strength, and I didn't need to use two vet uk ones. Then 3 Chemeyes or  2 pancreatic Nutrient  per meal. 

B12 injection monthly.  Trinfac B12 + intrinsic factor capsules from Chemeyes daily. Metacam for knee joints.  Also used Yumpro Bio pre/probiotics.

Food: picky eater,tinned  Chappie saved her life  till she would eat kibble again.  Eden Holistic, Millies Wolfheart and Lily's Kitchen all good,chicken and grain free.

Vets, one caring learner, who had  nervous breakdown, replaced by obnoxious vet , so I rang round  interviewing them to find someone I trusted and would work with us. Since losing Marti and Bob, I have changed again since the good vet us retired.

RIP Bobby the cocker , from PLN.  Present pet, Tinker the fluffy little grey Greek rescue dog. New addition, Jack ,  a neglected rescue terrier, looks like a fox cub and so happy to to be healthy and loved.

 


March 29, 2018 at 5:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

maddie ann at March 29, 2018 at 4:40 PM

Hi Laura

Yes i used powder started with Lypex but it was to expensive ...chemeyes will also ship the powder to you if you look at there website they are really nice to deal with they had an EPI dog so can guide you all the way.Powder is easy because  you can adjust the dose...can i ask was your dog Dx by a test ?



his epi was dx seven years ago, with exam tli, he was one year old. but the vet gave me enzymes when he was 5 months old, after an eco, because he was very undernourished. as pancreatic enzymes I gave: tryplase - pancrex - (withdrawn from pharmaceutical companies) then creon and now lypex. in all these years, making lots of mistakes, I learned many things about the epi and teddy lives his life very well. but now it will certainly be too lean meat or quantity. I will follow your valuable advice and I will update you. in these days I ordered the slippery elm of which I have read so much here.

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March 30, 2018 at 1:53 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

What meat do your pets eat? have intolerance or allergy to some meat?

March 30, 2018 at 1:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Riley's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 2000

Hi Laura and welcome to the forum

To answer your question about the meat, many EPI dogs don't tolerate chicken. But some of them do just fine, so if you choose chicken as your meat, keep a careful watch to see how your pup does. 

Try to add an extra meal as Olesia suggested as well as adding a higher fat meat. 

Keep us updated!

--

Elisabeth

Riley's Mom from Chesapeake, VA

Riley, 8 yr old Labradoodle diagnosed September 2014 cTLI 1.6

Weight before diagnosis 40 lbs, lowest weight 33 lbs, ready for the Chunky Monkey club as she weighed in at a whopping 42 pounds on 12/19/14!

Update: as of 2/25/15 Riley weighs in at 44.2 pounds!

Update: as of 6/15/15 Riley weighs in at 45 pounds!

Feeding grain free kibble TOTW, 1 tsp of Diane's 6x enzymes per cup of food. (I mix the enzymes in something moist). She is a picky eater--lately feeding her on a flat plate is the way to entice her to eat. 1 cup in the am, 2 cups in the pm, 1 tsp of coconut oil per meal, 1 packet of FortiFlora probiotic in the pm meal.

Began weekly B12 shots 10/23/14. Holding on shots for now.

Began 1 Wonderlabs B12 in the morning, 1 in the evening. Capsule opened up and sprinkled on her food.


*I am not a vet, anything I share or suggest on this site is solely from my experience as an EPI dog owner. It is recommended that anything shared or suggested on this forum be discussed with your pet's vet.*

March 30, 2018 at 7:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17178

Hi Laura,


By the way, your English is very good!   ONe thing i would like to address in response to your reply to me.  You wrote " I used the chemeyes b12 tablets but I suspended them because b12 was good."


I suspect that this is part of the weight (not gaining/losing) problem.  Once an EPI dog has low B12 you should NEVER stop giving B12.  Even when the B12 levels come back up to upper-mid-range levels.  WHat should then be done is give enough B12 to maintain the achieved upper-mid-range levels.


If Teddy is tolerating the diet you now have him on.... Best this is to either slightly incease the protein portion (meat) ... OR... give add another small meal daily with the same diet that you are feeding now..... AND... go back to giving him B12 from Chemeyes.  B12 levels, when not maintained can fall dramatically and cause the lack of weight and other issues.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

March 30, 2018 at 11:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

Riley's Mom at March 30, 2018 at 7:57 AM

Hi Laura and welcome to the forum

To answer your question about the meat, many EPI dogs don't tolerate chicken. But some of them do just fine, so if you choose chicken as your meat, keep a careful watch to see how your pup does. 

Try to add an extra meal as Olesia suggested as well as adding a higher fat meat. 

Keep us updated!

turkey and chicken can give the same reaction?

March 30, 2018 at 2:35 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

I noticed that when b12 increases, folates also increase. can this be a problem? anyway, just this morning I started to give b12 chemeyes. thank you all, you are really kind to me

March 30, 2018 at 2:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3134

Hi Laura - I apologize for being late welcoming you to our EPI family.  You've been given great advice and as Olesia stated your English is VERY good.  I just wanted to add that my boy was on 2 B12 pills a day for the first year - I tried to reduce to 1 pill a day and he dropped 6lbs in two months - I went back to 2 pills a day and he gained the 6lbs back in 2 weeks.  EPI dogs need B12 supplementing for life even if it gets to a "high" point as they can't hold their B12 without supplementing.  I have not heard of anyone having an issue with the added folate - if I remember right it's because when folate is high from supplementing it does not mean they will have SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth) but when folate is high without supplementing it does indicate SIBO.  

I also recommend keeping your journal - no matter how long you are into EPI it can be SO helpful to figure things out.

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 30, 2018 at 3:46 PM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

thank you. Thank you so much. I still ask you another tip: I've always been afraid to make him eat chicken for fear of allergy, but do you think the turkey is the same? Years ago, we had homemade food and I tried many meats, but after a few months he had a very bad inflammation of the perianal sacs (lasted a few months) ... what a bad time !!!

Ps when I understand how to download photos, I can introduce you to my Teddy ��

March 31, 2018 at 2:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3134

Hi Laura - when Doc was going through his allergy stuff the dermatologist said if a dog is allergic/sensitive to chicken then stay away from other foul based foods - i.e. turkey, duck etc.  When I did his NutriScan food sensitivity test followed by a blood allergy test both showed reaction to chicken, turkey, duck.  So in my opinion I would avoid the turkey.

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


March 31, 2018 at 7:59 AM Flag Quote & Reply

LAURA Leotta
Member
Posts: 12

here, I suspected it

March 31, 2018 at 9:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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