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Forum Home > General Discussion > Started for Bill Cooper and his dog Ace

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3159

Morning all! My name is Bill and I recently have had my Border Collie diagnosed with EPI. Long story short:

 

In January, Ace was at the vet for his usual check-up/vaccinations and weighed a lean but healthy 35 lbs at a year and 5 months old. About 8 weeks ago, we had some pretty bad storms through Virginia (and some subsequent torential rain storms). By our house there is a manhole cover that was lifted up and water spewed into the yard. Ace also loves playing in the creek by the dog park here in town which was abnormally high (and not clear) due to the rains. Shortly after this, his stools became "soft serve" and I attributed it to maybe catching a bug in the water. Changed up his diet to help his belly and the stools continued. May 31st, I finally was able to get into the vet's office and he was down to 24.8 lbs. Still had his appetite, still had his personality, still was a soft serve factor! :) Doc ran some tests and decided to do some blood work. Come to find out the diagnosis was EPI. Over the next few days I feverishly tried to find as much information as I could find (and a way to afford the enzymes they were going to prescribe me). That led me to here and Diane's enzymes.

 

I feel more prepared for what I need to do and we are quickly falling into a routine. Prior to my starting the enzymes, I took Ace back to the vet for a "baseline" weight and he was at 26.4 after the antibiotics started working in his system and the stool started to normalize. I received my first batch of enzymes from Diane this past Friday and so far have had no issues with the protocol or Ace wanting to eat.

 

My Thanks go out to everyone who has shared their stories and information on here. I am less fearful of the road ahead and am hopeful I'll be able to share my own insights along the way to help those who are as I was not only a week and a half ago.

June 11, 2018 at 8:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

Thank you so much for all of the help.  I was able to reply on another thread but was unable to start my own post!  I'm trying to navigate things and am on information overload but in a good way (if at all possible).

June 11, 2018 at 9:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Administrator
Posts: 3731
Hi Bill and welcome to you and Ace. Sounds like you are on a good road to recovery for Ace. There is a lot of information on this site so take some time to go over it. What food are you feeding? It is found for EPI dogs a grain free diet with lower fiber, around 3.5% or so. What antibiotic is Ace on? There are 4 cornerstones of EPI to get your pup on track . 1) diet 2) enzymes(not plant based) 3antibiotica and 4)B12. An EPI pup needs a B12 level of upper range of 600. Please ask any questions here, we will do our best.
--

   Jill-  Washington State

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria,high blood pressure, hypothyroid, spinal stenosis

diet of  hard boiled eggs, macaroni,  RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow, 1- 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day ,  Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn sirup for arthritis, .1mg Adequan weekly by shot. 75mg Tylan 2x./day for SIBO

Optimmune for Dry eyes

 Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

TJ is the newest addition.  He is in the bottom picture with Kiya.  He was born 7/05/2015. 

I am not a vet, just a pet owner sharing what experiences I have had in helping my dogs with other pet owners.  If you have an emergency please call your vet.





June 11, 2018 at 9:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

He's actually eating Purina Pro True Instincts Grain Free.  We started it before the diagnosis and he actually responded pretty well to it initially so the vet said we could stick with it if his system agrees with it.  It checks the grain-free box and is at 3.0% if memory serves right now.  We started the enzymes Friday afternoon with 1 tsp per cup and almost instantly stools looked like they should (and better than any I remembered in the past).  The volume is smaller and the frequency is much less.

When they ran the TLI, I didn't know at the time to ask to have his B12 tested but I will next time I head in.  In the meantime, I have ordered the B12 from wonderlabs that I've seen mentioned.

I don't remember the antibiotic right off of the top of my head but it was for something that was not related to SIBO but for a bacteria from the storms and tainted water.  The fecal tests came back fine that they ran initially when they did the bloodwork.

Me being the inquisitive type reweighed Ace again today and he's now 28.1 lbs. up from the 26.4 Friday.  Now, as I'm finding out others have experienced, he has started drinking more and urinating much more.  I was concerned at first but thanks to some info I found on here, it looks to not be uncommon when starting the enzymes.  I'm sure the body is trying to normalize itself and some of it is probably he is so used to having to poo every time he went out in the past.  Darn pavlovian responses.  haha  :)


June 11, 2018 at 10:28 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Judy & Piper
Administrator
Posts: 694

Hi Bill,  I'm just popping in to welcome you and Ace to our EPI family.  You are getting excellent advice above. 

--
Piper - Diagnosed 21 Jan 14 at approx 16 months of age TLI 0.3
            DOB - late Sept/early Oct 2012 (found as a stray in a remote Northern Labrador community at approx 3 - 4 months of age)
Using Enzyme Diane 6x 
B12 shots every week at home as well as 2 pills per day
 Eating Pulsar Lamb or Pork
67lbs at time of diagnosis, now 118lbs.
Diagnosed with Hypothyroidism Sept 2014, taking Thyro 0.6mg 2 x daily. 
Piper also has Cushings Disease, allergies and a host of other things but she's happy and we spend our time going for Quality of Quantity because, at the end of the day, that's what's most important
I am not a Vet.  Anything I share or suggest on this site is strictly from my experience as the owner of an EPI dog.  It is recommended that suggested on this forum be discussed with your Vet.

June 12, 2018 at 7:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Administrator
Posts: 3686

Hi Bill you sound like you have done your home work regarding EPI and i am so glad that you have ordered the B12 tablets  please do get the results.

I have just a couple of things to mention avoid treats until your dog is stable all food must be with enzymes and to start with we suggest that you feed an extra meal..so look at your bag of food work out what weight he should be and feed 150% of this  i would have thought that this would be about 1.5 cups per feed but i am just guessing .

--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


June 12, 2018 at 7:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Administrator
Posts: 3731
Like Ann said good job on being proactive! You might want to download a journal to keep track of food and med intake. It helps if something upsets the cart. It is under the download tab.
--

   Jill-  Washington State

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria,high blood pressure, hypothyroid, spinal stenosis

diet of  hard boiled eggs, macaroni,  RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow, 1- 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day ,  Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn sirup for arthritis, .1mg Adequan weekly by shot. 75mg Tylan 2x./day for SIBO

Optimmune for Dry eyes

 Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

TJ is the newest addition.  He is in the bottom picture with Kiya.  He was born 7/05/2015. 

I am not a vet, just a pet owner sharing what experiences I have had in helping my dogs with other pet owners.  If you have an emergency please call your vet.





June 12, 2018 at 9:39 AM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

Thanks Jill and Maddie.  I already have a log started based on the one that is on the download section so we're getting into that routine.

Maddie - i've been doing about a cup-cup and a half at each feeding.  We are doing 3 times a day (with a 4th smaller feeding as a "treat" if he seems like he's still hungry.  

Thanks for all of the great feeback!  

June 12, 2018 at 12:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17183

Hi Bill,

So .... you finally got on the forum... we have been having a real problem with it, but hopefully we will be rolling out our new website shortly and won't have these issues.


Very glad to hear that Ace is responding well so to EPI treatment.  You are doing a great job and that is wonderful that Ace already put back a few pounds :).  Just a little heads-up... if after a few weeks, Ace's poo goes down hill a bit, don't worry, it will not because you did something wrong, nor will Ace be getting worse or things stopped working...... it will just be that SID needs addressing. Let us know if this happens and we'll walk you thru what to do next.  In the meantime, sounds like you hae a good understanding of what to do and are doing a great job!  


Please keep us posted!

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

June 12, 2018 at 2:47 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Barb
Administrator
Posts: 3959

Welcome, Bill to you and Ace .He is very lucky to have you.   You are doing all the right things and you have received excellent advice here.   We all remember dealing with the beginning stages of EPI treatment, so we understand what you are going through.  You are doing a great job. 

Congratulations on the weight gain!  That does not always happen so soon.  .

.I'm glad you started keeping a log.   It saved our sanity and gave us so much valuabe information. 


Keep us posted on how Ace is doing.


Barb 

--


June 12, 2018 at 3:18 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9
Just received it B12 vitamins today and according to the bottle he should receive 1 a day. Is that right or should it be 2. Also was curious to hear from those who have experienced the excessive urinating after beginning the enzymes. How long typically before things seen to normalize? Thanks again for the encouraging remarks and willingness to help!
June 13, 2018 at 3:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Administrator
Posts: 3686

Hi Bill do you have his b12 levels yet..that may help decide how many to give? you may want to do 2 a day for say a fortnight and then reduce down to 1 a day some still keep giving 2 but thats there personal choice  on how there dog react once they lower the dose.

--

 ANN (UK).

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  10  DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 was 902 which gave me the confidence to continue without injections.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

She has panzym altough over the years we have had to increase the dose she currently has 1/2 tsp per feed.


June 14, 2018 at 7:42 AM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

They did not pull B12 numbers when they ran bloodwork (and I didn't know to ask at that point).  I figured 1 pill, 2x per day to start until we had another test run and then I'd have a better idea.  I'm going to err on the side of they are low due to the amount of weight lost, the stool composition, and the general assumption that most EPI dog's are deficient.

June 14, 2018 at 3:30 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Barb
Administrator
Posts: 3959

Many dogs begin to pee excessively when they first start the enzymes.  Not all dogs do this, and we are not sure what causes it in the dogs that do.  Kolby had several accidents in the house when he was first diagnosed and had begun eating enzymed food .....even though he had been house trained for over ten months.  Once there was so much liquid in our entryway that I thought there was a flood!   After several months everything went back to normal and he has never had the problem again.  He is 9.  It was pretty dramatic when it happened though.   


Barb

--


June 14, 2018 at 10:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

Hi all.  I'm proactively asking because I feel like it's inevitable.  I got back in touch with the vet to see which antibiotic they had placed Ace on and why.  He was on Azithromycin 2x daily for 10 days.  His fecal test had come back originally showing Cryptosporidium.  We figured it was from tainted water.

I received the B12 vitamins and started them on the 14th (1 twice daily with the morning and evening meals).  He didn't like the capsules....kept picking them out of the food and dropping them to the side...so I just opened them and sprinkled on the meals and he was perfectly fine to eat.

We've now been prescription free since the morning of the 16th and while his poo's still have shape, although not as solid. I'm going to continue to monitor as a dedicated poop patrol member but my question is "what's next?"  Prebiotics (slipper elm) vs. antibiotics (Tylan/tylosin).  Thanks in advace for all of your help. It is a bit less overwhelming.

June 18, 2018 at 4:48 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Epi4Dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 17183

Hi Bill,


So...just checking in with you.... How is ACE doing?  Regarding next steps.... what is the poo like now... that will determine if you need to implement Slippery Elm and if that doesn't help enough, then implement antibiotics .....or let things settle and jsut keep an eye on things to see if you need to do anything more at this time or not.  


Glad you are keeping a journal. That will save your sanity  .... because as you make changes/improvements here and there..... the notes will let you know which changes help and which one hinder things.... and little by little you will start to see trends with your EPI dog..... and THAT really helps us best help our pups.

--

Olesia, owned by Izzy, a 35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable 9+ yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes (use EnzymeDiane's 6x) with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Fed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane., gave 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.... until she developed Diabetes and now cannot tolerate higher fat foods.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She is now on an all home-made diet which she does best on and has even been able to reduce the insuline (Vetsulin:pork-based insulin) . Because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia- -she is much more even-keeled with a diet of sweet potato, a lean meat/fish, sometimes a free range egg, cottage cheese,  fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions/recommendations are based on personal expereinces, observations, information gleaned from EPI research, and information shared with me by EPI researchers....that hopefully may help others. Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet.

June 19, 2018 at 2:43 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9

Ace has been doing well.  We started this journey on the 31st at 24.8 lbs.  As of last night, he was hovering right around 31 lbs so I've definitely been pleased that he's put the weight (mostly) back on in such a short time frame.  

We are a few days out of any antibiotics so I'm back on poo patrol.  So far things are firm, although not quite as pellet like.  

June 19, 2018 at 3:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Doc's Mom
Administrator
Posts: 3159

Hi Bill!!  So glad Ace has gained weight - that's a huge accomplishment so pat yourself on the back for a job well done.  I am 3 years in and my dog's poop still has it's off days and is no where near the perfection of my non-EPI dog LOL!!  Since you've only been prescription free for two days I would wait a few more days before trying anything.  I have found with my boy I have to give changes a week or two to see how they really affect him.  If you do decide to try something new, be sure to only make one change at a time and give that one change time to see how it affects your dog.

--

MADELON and DOC aka "BUBBY WUBBY"

Nashville, Tennessee

DOB: 4/3/2014 - Diagnosed EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
EPI Test Results: 1st test 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; 
2nd test 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; 3rd test 10/2015   TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4

Weight: 95 (highest 1/2015) - 76 (lowest 5/2015) - goal met 100lb (7/23/15) - 101.8LBS 12/3/15 - CHUNKY MONKEY

History prior to DX:  May/June 2014 (2mos old) - DX coccidia and bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos old) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Diagnosed SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May  2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop.

History since DX: has maintained weight between 95-101lbs since July 2015; extreme yeast and rod infection in ears; yeast infection paws (ongoing); bacterial eye infection; bacterial skin infection on legs; poops LIVE fly larvae; diagnosed with mild, focal superficial pyoderma (bacterial infection) - rare lesions on inner thighs; bacterial and yeast overgrowth lip folds; yeast overgrowth feet and left ear; metacarpal/metatarsal draining tracts/fistulae (infection and/or immune mediated disease; probable underlying allergy (food vs. environmental ); staphylococcus pseudintermedius infection in sores on paws; recurring metatarsal fistula - all issues resolved after NutriScan Food Sensitivity Test and switching foods.

NUTRISCAN Food Sensitivity Test (12/2015): reactive to chicken, turkey, white fish, wheat, white potato (mild), venison, soy (mild), pork (mild), duck (mild), corn - switching food based on test resolved all skin issues.

Serum Allergy Test (5/2016): Too many to mention

CURRENTLY :  6 cups Forza10 Legend Skin - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 2 scoops TotalBiotics 1x day; 600mg vitamin E; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Milk Thistle during heartworm/flea/tick meds

I am not a vet.  All of my suggestions are based on my personal experiences, information gleaned from EPI research and information from other EPI owners.  Please always share anything and everything recommended on this forum with your vet

SO THANKfUL FOR OUR EPI4DOGS GUARDIAN ANGELS!!!!!!!!

YOUR PAWS LEFT PRINTS ON MY HEART (in loving memory of Bugsy aka Boo Boo - Boston Terrier 14yrs - not EPI but medically challenging and totally worth it)


June 19, 2018 at 7:58 PM Flag Quote & Reply

[email protected]
Member
Posts: 9
I couldn't have done it without the help and experiences of everyone here. I was thinking the same thing about not over reacting to a small blip. I'm just planning on keeping an eye on things but trying to prepare ahead of time if anything decided to change.
June 19, 2018 at 8:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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