EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Does it ever stop? Do I ever stop worrying that  there is no hope in sight?

How many times must I look at our dog and feel helpless?

how many times do I have to pet her and hold her and feel that my world is falling apart?

How many times do I have to look into her eyes and see that she loves me and my family for everything we are?

How much more do I have to explain to my daughter that our pup is ok, she's just not feeling well.

I just wish this was all a pretend day that my daughter likes to play, she could just wave her magical fairy wand and all would be good. Just like she does when Mommy and Daddy need some chicken soup.

This is going to take more then chicken soup.

If only there was a way to make chicken soup and tears help our dog...........I would find a way.

disclaimer: I've had a bit too much of Spaten tonight 

Hi Don, no we never stop worrying about our four legged friends. But take heart things will get better in time. At least you now have a diagnosis and have found this brilliant forum to give you all the support, help and advice you may need.  I know with Tyler, to see him so ill all the time it was heart breaking. He stopped growing at about 5 months old and started loosing lots of weight. Then when he finally got put onto enzymes and I saw a small improvement in his poop, two days later he had intussuseption of the intestine and I nearly lost him. Also he has panosteitis, which was diagnosed at 4 months. He is now 9 months and he will never grow to the size he should be, but I am just grateful I still have him and he is doing ok at the moment.  

So you see, keep the hope up and keep your chin up!!

Warm Wishes

Elly and Tyler

i doubt it:dry:

What is going on, Don? A week or so ago she put on 3.2lbs - and that's great. Has anything changed? I don't think we will ever stop worrying about them, just maybe not as excessively as we do in the beginning.

Hi Don.  Nope, the worries never stop, you will always be a poop patroller and a weight watcher.  But, it does get easier.  Once you find what works for you and Sky, it will ease up so much.   It's just trying to find that right mix for your dog.  Hang in there.  If in fact Sky did lose weight, not was weighed wrong, I would definately get the B12 checked right away or see about starting injections.  Read this, specifically, cobalamin therapy.  http://www.epi4dogs.com/b12.htm   this is why it is so important to have it tested/treated.

good luck.  Hope things look better soon.

HI Don... no... we never stop worrying.... but many, MANY times, we get to embrace the lull .. of EPI "submission"... as Karen said, once you find the right balance of things.... and you will.

I agree with Karen... i'd get Sky's B12 (cobalamin + folate) checked ASAP! Go to the link Karen recommended.... even if the B12 comes back on the low side of normal.... ask your vet to do the B12 regimen. Ask for the blood test to be sent to Texas A&M (all information on that link).

Now.....take a deep breath ... if Sky is doing nice, normal-formed doggie poo... SMILE... you are heading in the right direction... and just need some "tweaks".  This all takes time. The wrong color can be something as simple as the food (however, if you are feeding EVO small red meat... this should be a darker color) , or B12 deficiency, or SIBO and/or plant enzymes not strong enough. I am thinking along the same lines as Karen ...I would check the possibility of B12 deficiency right away.  This can really interfere with success.... then start addressing the other possibilities.

At this takes time.....first, you want to stop the loose stools (which you have already done... YEAH!) , then you need to make sure your dog also does not have B12 deficiency and/or SIBO. 

Next you want to focus on well-formed stools, amount of elimination, then the color comes in to play according (ruling out food causeing a certain color)......

Then comes stopping the weight loss.

THEN you focus on weight gain.

And last but not least... what the heck is Spatan???? I need to be sure to stay away from it.........................:D

Hi Don,

Stabalizing Tara was the most stressful event in my life...My daughter has had heart surgery at 12 years old and this acutually came second.  Why, becuase I knew she was in great hands with the pediatic cardiac surgeon who was reassuring, answered every question - no matter how silly it may have seemed to him, wheras I didn't feel that way in Tara's case...BTW, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it took me well  over a year to stabalize Tara and I had a hard time trying to decide to trust the vet or the folks who have dealt with this...

My vet used to "poo-poo" me when I asked certain questions...I remember well how many times he said, "you can't believe  everything you read over the internet".  I fired him (yes you can fire your vet).  He also told me that Viokase was the ONLY thing that would stabalize Tara and generics were junk... Well, we proved him wrong.  I now have a wonderful vet who is learing through me and is not afraid to admit he doesn't know it all...

If you have Diane's enzymes, why not give them a try?  Also, I agree that Sky's B12  needs to be checked.

Hang in there...Sky will get better...It just takes a bit longer for some dogs...

Dionna

Hi Don,

I have recently just gone through a 24-hour blip with Angel. I can't pin-point the actual cause until I get her second TLI/B12/Fotale and full biochemistry results, but I could be dealing with SIBO or a simple case of ingested, untreated food.

It is true that we never stop worrying but we do learn to accept the conditon, live with it and make adjustments where we can.

I can only emphasis the need to have Sky's folate and B12 levels checked. If her B12 is low she will not properly absorb nutrients and will be at risk of incurring SIBO if these go undetected - A low B12 and high folate are indicative of SIBO. An antibiotic sould take care of SIBO. I believe the US use Tylan.

I am not going to contradict Donna's advice on the porcine enzymes as I don't know if Sky has deteriorated since your last post, but I will just ask if you are using double dose of Total-Zymes and incubating them no less than 20 to 30 minutes. I have been incubating the enzymes (sprinkled over every piece of kibble) for 40 minutes.  Also, Sky should not have any food without enzyme treatment, even a small piece of untreated food can result in a major problem. Is it possible your beautiful daughter might be giving Sky tid-bits at random, as children don't understand the consequences, especially when their action is one of good intention, bless them!

I do hope Sky hasn't regressed. Please let us know.

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel

Hi Don,

Ahhh, I have been to the dark, dark hole called the 'EPI Doldrums'...and I may add without the use of Spartan I went there all by myself  (I'm with Olesia....what the hell is it..?)

Nope, you never stop worrying but you do learn to take the good with the bad...and in the beginning the bad bits sort of outway the good bits whilst you're stabilising.  Theres no quick fixes and you're constantly on your toes, it does become a way of life and the good bits get longer and longer.  People who have never experienced managing an EPI dog have absolutely no idea how it affects you, especially emotionally and what you are feeling is perfectly normal...but that doesn't really help you deal with it does it.....?

But I'll tell you this....the worry, the stress, sleepless nights, poop patrolling, visiting the vets more than you visit relatives....I'd have it all back in a heartbeat.  I've been living a 'normal life' for 6 weeks and it SUCKS.

Hang in there Don, you have been doing great.  What you are feeling at the moment will pass....it will rear its head again some time again, thats the nature of the demon....Look at Sky and know you are doing the very best for her....She needs you Spartan free:)

AHAH, Found the culprit......Don, step away from the bottles!

Hi Don,

I too had the feelings you harbor now. I don't know much about your girl Sky - what kind of enzymes or food, etc.-

but we are here for you with help and support.

Spartan, eh? Hmm, is that a Delaware beverage? LOL

Just hang in there. It DOES get better.

Diane & Kody Grace in PA

.... "step away from the bottles"      .... love it!

Sorry about my little rant. yeah...too much Spaten.

I have so much crap going on now, I needed to hang out with a friend and just drink good German beer and shoot the crap.

between Sky not being well, and getting custody of my 16 year old son 3 months ago who is contantly testing me and my wife, I'm about to lose it.

Well, enough about that.

Sky is off to the vet this Saturday for another weigh in and i will be in the room when they do it.

Currnet feeding is

3 cups Evo small bites red meat in the a.m. with a dab of yougurt (per the vet) and I do 5 scoops of total zymes mix stir mix sitr let sit for 40 minutes

night 3 1/2 cups evo 1/2 cup raw lean beef 7 scoops of total zymes let sit for 40 minutes

I do put water on the kibble and let sit for a bit before adding the total zymes

her energy level has never decreased and she is till a major  PITA when she doesn't get enough exercise or training. She's working line, so she is high energy.

When she is done eating I tell her to go platz and she  goes right upstairs and lays down on the couch she is allowed to lay on. And stays there until I tell her it's time to take break. Normaly about 1 hour after she eats I'll let her out, sometimes 2 hours if she is still resting.

I base it on her attitude. If she has to go take break sooner, she tells me.

I've been doing the same resting state with Buddy as well.

Hi Don,

16 year olds are testing at the best of times and I would assume in your particular circumstances....you are all going through a strange settling in period for all and thats got to be tough, on top of that you have Sky and its an emotional rollercoaster for sure.. :ohmy:No wonder you hit the Spatan:tongue:....sounds like you needed to let off steam....and you need to do that now and again.  Deep breath Don, stick with it, you're doing good.

Hi Don,

Sorry to hear you are going through a bad time. Sometimes these things come all at once and can hit us like a ton of bricks!

It sounds like you are doing great with your feeding/incubation regime. Do you incubate the yogurt?  The vet most probably suggested this because yogurt contain lactobacillus/friendly bacteria. I'd be more inclined to use a good pro/prebiotic for this purpose as the sugar content in yogurt might aggravate epi. Total-Zymes company offer a very good pre/probiotic called Total-Biotics with 11 species of friendly gut bacteria - http://www.petenzymes.com/index.php/frontproduct/new-size-total-bioticsr-63-gram-powder.html . I am awaiting my order for Angel.

Don, as one T.Z user to another, what's Sky's poop like?  I have been working on double dose and have recently increased the amount, but through my trial and error I have played around a bit with the enzymes and the amount of food spread over the three meals. I think this is greatly, although not totally, responsible for Angel's current flare-up.  Just like porcine enzymes, it is finding a dose that works for different food types and the individual dog. And, sadly, some epi fur-babes on porcine enzymes also suffer flare-ups.

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel

Hi All,

I mean't to address this in my previous post.

Adding yoghurt to meals

When I was looking for various ways of helping with Bonnie's friendly bacteria, I too added yoghurt to her food.  I then read somewhere (sorry cant put my hand to the information) that to make a difference using yoghurt the amount you would have to give would be enormous and by giving small amounts it would be compromised by bile/acids anyway and little if any would actually make their way to the stomach.  When I asked at the vets, two of them agreed that it makes very little difference giving small amounts and that by increasing it by what you would have to, could cause more problems, dairy intolerance as its not something a dog would normally have in their diet.  They did however endorse using pre/probiotics ensuring the friendly bacteria are the correct ones as not all of the ones listed have the desired effect and could actually work against the friendly causing more unfriendly bacteria to develope... Sorry I can't put it into more scientific terms...

I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on this.....so throwing it into the pot and taking cover

Personally I give all 3 of my dogs natural yogurt..... (they think it's ice-cream) ... but then again... my dogs don't have a problem with dairy products. BUt I have read the same that Debra's your vet confirmed.... just giving them yogurt isn't really enough to make any difference........

Hi Debra ~

I think you have explained this very well indeed. I also think it is very sound in what you say about using the wrong probiotics and it would seem that e.faecium might be one of them. There is much controvesy about the correct probiotics. Wouldn't it make more sense to base choice on the species of friendly gut bacteria of a healthy dog? When I saw the vet last Saturday with Angel, he was going to give me the e.faecium probiotic, which I used post antis when Angel was diagnosed with epi, distemper, but after reading the trial study that Olesia placed in one of the threads, I declined taking it.

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel 

I must say the girls absolutely LOVE yoghurt.. and positively drool when they hear the yoghurt lid pop.

Well, I certainly missed a few connecting words!   Fingers were typing faster than the brain!  Here's the amendment: Angel was diagnosed with epi, distemper and a heavy e.coli infection, but after reading the trial study that Olesia placed in one of the threads, I declined taking it this time round.

Wouldn't it make more sense to base choice on the species of ALL the friendly gut bacteria of a healthy dog?

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel