EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Hi all,

Can someone give me a list of veggies that are not good for dogs. I figured that the list would be shorter then what is okay. I have to put Ayasha, a GSD, on a diet, she just recently topped the scales at 101 lbs (46kg)  and the vet wants her at about 93lbs (42kg). I asked where do I cut back, she gets 2 cups of kibble and about a 1/5 of a can of wet food twice a day. He told me to cut her back to a cup and a half of kibble. We compromised and cut her back to 1-3/4 cup per meal, because OUR hands and feet are constantly in her vision not the vets. Well, with this cut back, she is always hungry, so I figured that 1/4 cup of kibble could be made up with a 1/4 cup of veggies and she should be happy.  So if someone can tell me what Veggie I can't feed her, I will be able to feed her what is not on the list.

Thanks,

Frank

OMG Ayasha....   http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/images/fatpig2.jpg/image_preview" />what happened to ya ???? ( :Dsorry Frank.....i just couldn't resist)

Frank, try "some" COOKED stringbeans, broccolli, squash, see how she does. Hopefully  others will chime in.  .... I have to get ready to take Izzy to the vet so I can't check right now, but i DO have a list of water solable fibers that are more digestible. when i get home later, i'll look for it and post for you.

olesia,

How did you get Ayasha's picture?

I was hoping for raw veggies.  I would like to make this a simple as possible, in other words we're lazy.  Right now we give her (all raw) carrots, green beans, yellow beans,  potatoes,  canned pumpkin, (cooked) sweet potatoe,  with her food.  As a snack, when I'm eating, apple slices, watermelon, cantaloupe, musk melon.  All this I know she doesn't have a problem with.  I've read somewhere that if you cook the veggies they need to have enzymes on them, and raw you don't.

Frank

I don't think that's entirely correct - everything they eat needs enzymes

maybe you're thinking of the carrots - as no dog can digest carrots anyway and they just pass right through - there is no point in trying to enzyme a raw carrot

as far as what NOT to feed - the only ones I know about are onions, grapes and raisins - and seeds e.g. apple

I have used everything on your list plus some - spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, zucchini, squash,  and probably more that I've forgotten

I just chunk everything I am going to use - throw it in a stock pot with water - let it cook - it can then just be mashed with a fork into the meal - no grinding, no major chore - if I'm adding fruit I put it in at the end - I don't really cook fruit

Frank:

I'm sorry...I'm chuckling, because I had to put Akira on a diet not so long ago.  I did cut her back to 1 1/2 cups of food but for her it wasn't a huge deal because often she'll stop at that amount anyway.  If you add green beans, thay are a good filler without a huge amount of calories.  Things like squash, pumpkin, sweet potato and peas all have a fairly high sugar count I believe, and while they can be good for them in many ways, they also are not some of the lowest in calories...pumpkin may be an exception??  Corn is too hard to digest and pretty much comes out as it goes in but also is starchy.  You can give the fruit without enzymes and fruit is a good addition to meals.  I shred carrots and lightly cook them...keep a bunch in fridge to add to dogs meals.  I do the same with green beams if I buy them fresh or it's garden time but always have home canned green beans (of different varieties) .  Akira can tolerate rice, so I sometimes will add rice as a filler.  One other time a few years ago, I did put Akira on a lower calorie food that Eagle Pack puts out.  She doesn't do well with chicken and it does have chicken in it but I mixed that with the duck/oatmeal and she did lose weight.  Some of the things that Karen mentioned, are good but can cause gas.  If I remember right...Akira likes cauliflower, but it's been a while since I gave her any...but she won't touch broccoli.  See...none of us are giving you what you asked for...I'll check online and see if I can find a no no list other than grapes, raisins and onions. 

Hi Frank,

Sorry i didn't get back to you sooner.......vets visit and cooking dinner and life got in the way

Yea...Izzy snapped that picture at the same time Ayasha took this pictuer of Izzy:

I think the two gals of ours were having fun with the camera

Couldn't find the actual list i was thinking of.... but can share with you what to safely give Ayasha to eat that i can give my gal without any problems... Izzy is actually eating a LOT of cooked cauliflower now (long story).... really fills them up and it is (or at least for us) highly fermentable / water soluble fiber that she seems to tolerate well.......

Cauliflower (cooked)

Brocolli (cookd)

Spinach (i cook)

Kale (just started using this!) (cooked)

Celery (raw or cooked)

String Beans (raw or cookde)

Squash (i have to be careful how much spaghetti squash i give)

Sweet potato (cooked and mashed)

pumpkin (canned)

Lettuce (raw)

Green peppers (cooked)

Bananas are okay... but izzy doesn't like them

Apples (no skin) are also okay, but again, Izzy, again doesn't like them... she doesn't ahve much of a sweet tooth......

Stay away from Avocados, raisins, grapes, Macadamian nuts, don't overload on garlic, onions,

Olesia,

Don't forget blueberry and strawberry (high in antioxidents)...These are some of Tara's fav's. She does like bananna and it's an excellent source of potassium. I've also given her melons.   Yup, Tara is on a diet too!   

The only things I know you should not give are grapes, avacados and onions.

Izzy is not a big fan of sweets so we don't give many fruits out here at the kennedy house... but she did eat half a pear one time that fell off the tree .. without enzymes and she never did have a bad poop episode from it :)......

Romaine lettuce is good but not iceberg lettuce.  Broccoli is good in small amounts as is cauliflower but for some things like cauliflower...the leaves and any green parts are bad.  Just as the leaves and stems from potatoes, rhubarb and tomatoes are toxic but the fruits and veggies themselves aren't.  Don't allow peach pits, apple seeds (almost all fruit pits are toxic).  I believe I read that avocados are toxic as well as eggplant.  Mushrooms are iffy...it may depend on the kind so I'd stay away from them.  Onions are toxic but I've had dogs who loved them and we didn't know better so we let them eat onions...now they say even stay away from the onion powder.  Garlic is also supposed to be a no no. 

Could you tell me how you add and measure the enzymes? Or do you add to the kibble mix? I'd like to start adding some veggies to Partner's meals. Thank you for your help.

Ann & Partner-Melrose, MA-USA

Hi Frank,

I posted a safe food list for dogs several months ago, including a post on soluble fibre and insoluble fibre foods but I can't find it. However, these good members have provided a good selection.

I don't think it is true about raw veggies not needing enzyme treatment and believe that Karen is right in saying that all food requires enzyme treatment for EPI. I made the mistake of not adding extra enzymes when adding veggies, L-glutamine and other such items to Angel's main meals, or just giving her the odd treat. I now use CREON for giving her treats like doggie biscuits and at the same time taking the opportunity to give her things like raw peas in the pod and a few cooked veggies and the odd piece of toast and such like within half hour of her taking the CREON capsule.

To Frank and Ann ~ I think when using powder enzymes it would be prudent to add extra enzymes when including the veggies in the meal or if feeding veggies exclusively, then treat them with enzymes and incubate as normal. I have no idea how much enzymes you would need to add, either when given with the food or separately. I think it is trial and error.

And wow ..... so we now have a few fur-babies on a diet!  I'm not doing too well with Angel's diet - instead of taking some off, she's put a wee bit on!

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel

Hi Ann & Partner

Welcome to the group. Below is a reprint of something I posted back in November.

We get our enzymes from emzymeDiane.  I have 36 small plastic bottles that I purchased from my local pharmacy.  They are white with screw on lids and hold 1 or 2 ounces.  I fill these botles every 18 days, with 1-1/2 teaspoons of Pancreatin 8x.  Every meal gets 1 container.

This is the way I do Ayasha's food:

    *  In a bowl, I put in 2 cups of kibble.

    *  Add 1/3 to 1/2 cup of warm water,

    *  We use an exam type nitrile gloved hand to mix the kibble and water where all the kibble looks damp.

    *  Sprinkle on top of the damp kibble the 1-1/2 teaspoons of pancreatin 8x.

    *  We then spoon out about 1/4 to 1/5 can of wet dog food on top of the kibble and enzymes.

    *  Using the gloved hand mix the three different items in the bowl.  Keep squishing the mixture untill everything

        in the bowl looks the same.  This should be a minute or two. 

    *  I then form kind of a patty shape blob in the center of the bowl so it all kind of touches and incubates for 20  

        minutes.

    *  I then feed Ayasha.

It is much easier to mix with the gloved hand.  We get two boxs of Nitrile exam gloves, 300,  for about $15.  If you rinse your gloved hand under the faucet , lift the corner of the glove and blow between it and your inner wrist, you should be able to pull the glove off and reuse it until it tears, about 7-10 days.

Frank

Hi Julie & Angel,

I'm not sure when adding veggies you need to up the enzymes.  The main ingedient in the enzymes that we use is Lipase and Lipase takes care of fats.  The Protease works on the protein and Amylase works on the sugar. So,  not being an expert I don't think upping the enzymes just because you added veggies is required.  I may be wrong, others may chime in on this.

Frank

Hi everyone - yes we did discuss soluble andnon-soluble veggies before... it is the "Starch and Fiber " thread..... and Julie's list (thanks for reminding me Julie) is as follows:

List of high starch foods:

grains

pastas

rice

corn

potato (all)

turnip

squash

parsnip

beet

carrots

eggplant [unsure of toxic status for dogs]

avocado [toxic to dogs]

List of non-starch foods

aspargus [not sure of toxic status]

broccoli 

brussel sprouts [toxic to dogs]

cabbage [not good to feed dogs]

cauliflower

celery, chives [chives are toxic to dogs]

cucumber [unsure about toxic status]

kale, kohlrabi [not good to feed to dogs]

leeks [toxic to dogs]

leafy greens [not good to feed to dogs]

onions [Toxic to dogs in any form]

peppers (all)

parsley, radishes [Warning:strong radishes are an antibiotic-containing food - lethal tointestinal flora for the dog and human. Onion and Garlic also whentaken in high levels]

zucchini

watercress [unsure about feeing this one to dogs]

green beans

artichokes    [don't think dogs should have this]

sea vegetables [don't think dogs should have this]

dandelion greens [don't think dogs should have this]

endive, okra [don't think dogs should have this]

swiss chard [don't think dogs should have this]

The information I have gathered with concern to starch digestibility is notvery clear but it indicates that it is influenced to a significant degree by the ash and nitrogen content of food, both of which may havean effect on the flora of the intestinal tract. The problem is further complicated by the fact that starch also has a variable qualitative effect; sometimes it depresses the digestibility of all components (starch, ash and nitrogen) of the food and at other timeslowers digestibility of the crude fiber component only.

This is all I have for now and am just getting my head around it !   So, I don't know if it is of any use.

Warmest best wishes,

Julie & Angel

--

Angel,German Shepherd. Diagnosed epi 14th Aug. 09. TLI result 2. B12 *727 -high end of normal range. Folate 12.5 - normal. Lowest weight30kg/66lbs. Went up to 33.3kg/73.2lbs in ten days. Current weight 39kg/ 85.8 lbs. Orijen diet. On Total-Zymes, plant-based enzymes andTotal-Biotics- pro/prebiotics. Using CREON enzymes for giving treats.Angel is currently stable. Julie ~ UK

Dog Logic: The reason a dog has so many friends is that he wags his tail instead of his tongue. ~ Anonymous

Hi Frank

One vegetable I give my big boy buddy every day is Carrots he just loves them and they are good for his teeth & eyes at the same time.
I just skimmed through above and dont think anyone wrote that so i just wanted to chime in and say that carrots seem to work good to.

Hi Ann~

This is how I add veggies to my EPI gal's meal. ............ I just started making home-made cooked meals for Rico because of his A-typical Cushing disease...reviewed this recipe with my vet first before doing it.... I have certain rations of the food, but this is what is a rough idea of what I cook and then mix together in a HUGE pot...freeze 10 oz in those snack pack baggies and just use as needed.  Izzy gets 5 ounces of this with her 1 cup of grain-free kibble at every meal (she eats 2 meals a day.... (she LOVES it!).  As soon as my bone meal order comes in, and i am also  researching https://secure.balanceit.com/_clients2/supplements.php  for added essential nutrients and...once i decide what to go with, then I'll probably switch over completely to home cooked....  Any way... this is the batch of cooked food that i am making now when I give Izzy her 5 ounces of this mush i am increasing the enzymes by a finger pinch....honestly... just a pinch... my guess is that my pinch is eqyal to 1/5 of a 1/2 of teaspoon.... and her stools have continued to be great.

2 cauliflower heads (trim the green leave and stalk, just like Linda stated) ... after it's cooked, very easily mashed

6-8 cups ofcooked  tapioca pearl seeds (cooked with water only)

12 oz fresh beef liver, blended

2 lbs of cod fish, cooked/steamed

1 lb of cooked ground beef, fat drained

5 lbs of chicken breast, cooked / steamed

2 yellow or green squash, cooked

2 sweet potato (nuked in the microwave and then skin peeled and mashed)

1/2 cup of pureed fresh kale

My dogs also get wild salmon oil one day and coconut oil the next day... and sometimes i throw in a1/2 sardine from canned sardines packed in water. They also get 2 tablespoons of yogurt at night

Before I started doing this home cooked thing for Rico and giving to Izzy (about 3 weeks ago) previously when i added approx  a little less than a 1/4 cup of cooked veggies (mashed) or maybe 5 cooked stringbeans (not mashed) to Izzy's meal.... i did not increase the enzymes.....But i do think this depends on the individual EPI dog.... so it would need to be trial and error with Partner. I always have to be careful with how much veggies i add to Izzy's diet...fiber sets of her big time..... but shereally tolerates cooked cauliflower very very well!

Partner says thank you everyone. He's glad to be starting on the veggies again. He hasn't had any since being dignosed on July 08. This will give him a fuller stomach without adding weight, I hope.

Ann & Partner-Melrose,MA-USA

Ann,

I've been feeding veggies and fruits forever and still waiting for a pound or two of weight loss, but I'm NEVER going complain if Tara's a bit chubby and my vet KNOWS better than to complain to me about it b/c he's seen how darn fast she can loose it when something else if a bit off with her.:wink:

Hi ,i have added veg soup [onion carrot potato leeks] with no enzymes & it was ok . Deesha has also had cooked sweet potatoes raw apples & carrots .As for over adding enzymes ,my idiot dog eat ALL of hers with no ill effect !I am still trying to gain weight & added stuff for vitamins .Guess that you just need to avoid the obvious :-apple pips grapes raisens .

Hello All,

Below is a list of SAFE and UN-SAFE foods that has shown up on the forum. Please feel free to add or subtract from the list.

                                                    SAFE FOODS

Food                                                     

apple slices (no skin or seeds)        Raw

Bananas     Raw

beet              Cooked            Canned

blueberry     Raw

broccoli        Cooked

broccolli       Cooked

canned pumpkin         Canned

cantaloupe       Raw

carrots               Raw                Cooked            Canned

cauliflower (green parts are bad)      Cooked

Celery           Raw                Cooked

grains           Cooked

green beans        Raw               Cooked            Canned

Green peppers         Cooked

Kale                             Cooked

musk melon               Raw

parsnip                       Cooked

pastas                        Cooked

pear                            Raw

peas                           Raw              Cooked            Canned

potatoes                    Raw              Cooked            Canned

rice                             Cooked

Romaine lettuce        Raw

spinach                      Cooked

squash                       Cooked

strawberry                  Raw

stringbeans               Raw               Cooked           Canned

sweet potatoe           Cooked

turnip                           Cooked

watermelon                Raw

yellow beans              Raw              Cooked            Canned

zucchini                       Cooked

                                                   UN-SAFE FOODS

apple seeds

artichokes

aspargus

Avocados

brussel sprouts

cabbage

chives

cucumber

dandelion greens

eggplant

endive,

garlic (don't overload on)

grapes

iceberg lettuce

kohlrabi

leafy greens

leeks

Macadamian nuts,

okra

onions

peach pits

radishes

raisins

rhubarb

sea vegetables

swiss chard

tomatoes

watercress

Chocolate (all forms)

Coffee (all forms)

Products sweetened with xylitol

Green Potato Skins

Hops

Mushrooms

Walnuts & most nuts

Frank