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Lynn
Member
Posts: 3

Hello Everyone!  What a wonderful site!  My dog was diagnosed about 4 weeks ago and was put on Pancreatic Powder. He has started to gain back a little of the 20 pounds he lost, but we can tell he is allergic to the powder.  He has many allergies and is being treated with bimonthly shots and a strict diet.  We had his allergies under control until this diagnosis caused him to be put on the powder.    Becasues of his allergies we are looking into alternatives.  Has anyone used "Wholistic Digest-All Plus" or any product like this that is a plant based Digestive Enzyme?  I would appreciat any information anyone has good or bad.  Thanks in advance

--

:roll:Lynn & Magnum

February 17, 2010 at 8:03 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 4186

Hi Lynn and welcome, although sorry you need to be here. :( 

 

One of our forum members, Julie, has had success with a product called, Total-Enzymes (please see the enzymess and digestion tab above), but I believe she is giving higher than recommended doses and Angel's EPI was brought on by pancreatitis, rather than PAA, which is what most young, GSD's have, IMHO.  Is your pup allergic to pork?  In most cases, porcine pancreatic enzymes are what works best, but if you're sure your pup is allergic to pork, that's not going to work...What are his symptoms?

--

Donna

 

Owned by Tara, a 8 YO GSD w/EPI and DM dx'd at about a year old. Fed Taste of the Wild Lamb formular kibble and enhance this diet with cooked meat, veggies and fruit, Enzymes: Pancreatin 8x - 1 tsp per cup of food. Suppliments include 1000 mg Wild Salmon oil, Glucosomine/Chondrotin/MSM and Probiotic acidophilus. Stable since 2005 Also owned by sidekicks' Zoey my rescued GSD and Max, a 10 MO PWC rescue - along with Tess (GSD) and  Zeke (PWC) with Angel wings

February 17, 2010 at 8:40 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lynn
Member
Posts: 3

Yes, he is allergic to pork amoung many other things.  We had him allergy tested about a year ago and the list of the things he is allergic to is very long.  The dog food he is on is IVD potato and venison which he does very well with.  Along with the strict diet he gets shots specific to him twice a month.  He sees his regular vet for the EPI and a dermatologist  vet for his allergies.  The dermatologist feels strongly about switching him off the bovine as all of his symptons (intense cratching and nawing) have returned.  So much so that again he has srcatched himself raw in places and caused infections.   The derm is not an expert wth the EPI and the regular vet is not an expert with the allergies.  So it is going to be a trial and error thing for Magnum.  I was hoping here to get some information from people that have tried alternatives to the normal prescribed powder.

Thanks:)

--

:roll:Lynn & Magnum

February 18, 2010 at 7:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Karen
Member
Posts: 1829

Hi Lynn.  The replacement enzymes you are using are porcine based, not bovine.  Pork instead of beef.  A couple of things you can think about.  It does seem a lot of dogs in the beginning, while their bodies are getting used to digesting food again, do seem to have allergy type symptoms.  So you could possibly hold out a bit and see if it eases some, or ask around and see if you can find some meat market that can get you cow pancreas and use that raw.  There are some members who use raw pancreas instead.  Depending on the dog, the plant based does not seem to work as well, yet sometimes they do.  With his system run down right now due to newly dx'd, you may want to try one of these first,then the plantbased.  Try to get his body going again, ie digesting food, good poops and stopping the weight loss.  Coconut oil or fish oil may help some w/ the itching also.  Here is a site for Cheetah, an epi dog who uses the raw pancreas, which may help get you started if you opt to go w/ the bovine pancreas raw.  http://ellsbury.com/cheetah.htm

Another place you may be able to buy it, not sure if they sell only raw porcine pancreas or not, is Hare Today.  That one you will have to look up.  I was able to get some here in MI, a butcher held some and let me try it.  We didn't do good on it, he didn't like it, so didn't stay with it.  But if you ask around your area, you may find one willing to let you try and save for you.  Sometimes you may need a vet's prescription, but I think that is rare.  Good luck.

--
Karen & Jaime-Lyn
DOB 3/31/11
cTLI 7/9/13 3.0  10/19/13 2.4
EPI, low B12, SLO
Raw Fed
-----------------------------
Always in my heart
My Angel Hondo
EPI, IBD, SIBO, PLE, Weekly B12 injections
Raw Fed
7/19/04-5/22/13
February 18, 2010 at 8:14 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Linda
Member
Posts: 1295

Lynn:

 

Welcome to the forum, your boy is beauitiful and I'd love to see more pictures. 

 

I'm a little confused...you titled the thread non-bovine powder but it kind of sounds as if he's on porcine powder? Have you tried using raw beef pancreas?  I know it's not easy to get, but I think there is at least one person who use it?  Hopefully someone will step up and help with information here.  I did some searches for beef pancreas powder and still have a little more research to do but so far only found one thing that is human grade, in pill form out of Canada and I'd need to go back now to find the name again.  I wonder if you were to call health food stores or some of the veterinary supply places and talk to them if they can give you more information.  One of the things that I found was beef pancreas powder but it had pork added to it and some others didn't specify whether it was bovine or porcine.  I'll continue doing some digging for information but after reading a couple of things on it this morning, I guess that beef pancreas must be harder to work with because it's more difficult to make into a liquid than pork is, so it must be more difficult to process into powder.  I'll let you know when I figure out more. 

--

Linda, Akira, Indy and the bratcats

Akira 101 lb GSD, DOB 9/18/03 Dx'd before her first birthday.  First TLI score 1.1, retested 9/07 score had lowered to 0.7.  "Normally" eats 1 1/2 cups Earthborn Holistic Ocean Fusion, twice daily with a couple of tablespoons of whatever additions I give that particular meal (veggies, yogurt, rice, beef or venision as an ever changing teaser), just a bit of hot water and mixed well .  1 1/2 t Pancreatin (or 1 t per cup of food) 8x enzymes given right before each meal in heaping t meat baby food with warm water and mixed to a gruel type texture.   As soon as she eats her enzyme mixture, I put her food down

February 18, 2010 at 9:11 AM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 12946

Hi Lynn and welcome to our site.

As folks have mentioned, there is the option of plant enzymes to try especially if your dog has allergies with pork.  Plant enzymes will not work with every EPI dog, usually plant enzymes are not potenet enough, however, sometimes it does work.

I will contact Julie, one of our members privately.. to contact you about this. She is one who has successfully used plant enzymes with her dog Angel...I do know she uses TotalZymes  http://www.epi4dogs.com/enzymesdigestion.htm

and she had to double the dosage... but i agree with Karen... since your baby was just diagnosed and is at the beginning of being treated, if there is anyway you can keep him onthe pork-based enzymes just for a little while until he regains some weight and muscle tissues (EPI comrpomises so much!!) and hopefully manage his allergies with shots or prednizone.. whatever your vet thinks would be appropriate... and then after you pup acheives "some" stabilization, then switchover the the plant enzymes.... LikeI said, i have Julie contact you and then if you can tolk with your vet and see  if this would be an option.  ALSO... has your pup been tested for B12 Deficiency?.... this is very important. B12 deficiency (and SIBO) is a secondary condition that accompanies EPI about 50-70% of the time... and especially with a pork allergy, my concern is that your pup needs all the absorption help he can get.


Looking forward to hearing from you!

 


--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make chnages to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content  her diet. She now gets 1/2 Annamaet Lean kibble and 1/2 TOTW kibble with either lean pork loin meat, or chicken breast or tuna twice a day. She also receives  9 or 10 units of Vetsulin (depending on her blood glucose reading) a pork based insulin. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. And now we have to monitor her exercise.   It's been one heck of a journey... but aside from all that Izzy has gone thru with her health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


February 18, 2010 at 12:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Lynn
Member
Posts: 3

Thank you everyone for your suggestion and advice.  I am sorry I confused everyone with the "non bovine" post, you are right it is pork.  I have done so much talking with both vets I got a little mixed up.  His poop is normal again and he has put on a few pounds with the enzyme powder that he is on.  We have an appt with his dermatologist in early March and I think we will not change anything until then and hopefully his body will adjust and this is just a transitional thing as some of you suggested!  I guess as a doggie mommy we worry too much sometimes!

Again, what a great site and filled with so much information, I was happy to find it!  And thank you , thank you, thank you for everyones help!

--

:roll:Lynn & Magnum

February 18, 2010 at 6:54 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 4186

Hi Lynn,

 

Thast sounds like a good plan of action to wait and talk to the derm dr and fill him/her in on this site and what you know.  As everyone has said, for most part, the plant based enzymes are simply not stong enough for an EPI dog and since he's doing well EPI wise on the porcine enzymes, I'd hate to see him backslide if you can help it.  Wild salmon or coconut oils are also a very good idea as they provide anti-inflamitory properties to maybe help fight any type of intolerance he's experiencing.

 

All three of my dogs are intolerant of chicken (Tara, my EPI girl can not tolerate any fowl) and it all presents itself differently...Tara gets the runs, Zeke vomits (he also has IBD) and Zoey gets uncontrolable yeast infections in her ears... I swear, one day I'll have a normal dog...:dry:

--

Donna

 

Owned by Tara, a 8 YO GSD w/EPI and DM dx'd at about a year old. Fed Taste of the Wild Lamb formular kibble and enhance this diet with cooked meat, veggies and fruit, Enzymes: Pancreatin 8x - 1 tsp per cup of food. Suppliments include 1000 mg Wild Salmon oil, Glucosomine/Chondrotin/MSM and Probiotic acidophilus. Stable since 2005 Also owned by sidekicks' Zoey my rescued GSD and Max, a 10 MO PWC rescue - along with Tess (GSD) and  Zeke (PWC) with Angel wings

February 18, 2010 at 7:24 PM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 12946

Phew... I am so glad to hear this: 

"We have an appt with his dermatologist in earlyMarch and I think we will not change anything until then and hopefullyhis body will adjust and this is just a transitional thing as some ofyou suggested!"

We do the best we can, and if you can't  use pork enzymes, you can't... and thenwe will try to help you as best we can to use an alternative, but pork enzymes really do do the best job overall with EPI that we know of.... so if you can somehow use them, that would be great. I'll hold off contacting Julie until after your appointment with the allergist in March... and then if you need to look at alternatives, please just let me know.

 


--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make chnages to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content  her diet. She now gets 1/2 Annamaet Lean kibble and 1/2 TOTW kibble with either lean pork loin meat, or chicken breast or tuna twice a day. She also receives  9 or 10 units of Vetsulin (depending on her blood glucose reading) a pork based insulin. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. And now we have to monitor her exercise.   It's been one heck of a journey... but aside from all that Izzy has gone thru with her health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


February 18, 2010 at 8:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Linda
Member
Posts: 1295

Lynn:

 

I'm glad that you'll be seeing the dermatologist...please let us know the outcome of that appointment.  Just for future reference, I talked to Diane (the person who deals with the lab and fills enzyme orders) after doing a great deal of online searching.  I do have some information from another lab that looks as if they have bovine powder.  I have the number and name for you to call for more information.  Diane emailed her rep at the Lab to ask if they had bovine enzymes or know of any labs that do.  She said that they sell freeze dried bovine pancreas but it's sold strictly as a freeze dried gland.  Diane and I both thought that it would be something you'd have to grind???  Let us know if you'd like more information.

 

 

--

Linda, Akira, Indy and the bratcats

Akira 101 lb GSD, DOB 9/18/03 Dx'd before her first birthday.  First TLI score 1.1, retested 9/07 score had lowered to 0.7.  "Normally" eats 1 1/2 cups Earthborn Holistic Ocean Fusion, twice daily with a couple of tablespoons of whatever additions I give that particular meal (veggies, yogurt, rice, beef or venision as an ever changing teaser), just a bit of hot water and mixed well .  1 1/2 t Pancreatin (or 1 t per cup of food) 8x enzymes given right before each meal in heaping t meat baby food with warm water and mixed to a gruel type texture.   As soon as she eats her enzyme mixture, I put her food down

February 19, 2010 at 11:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Lorraine
Member
Posts: 2

Lynn at 08:03PM on Feb 17, 2010

Hello Everyone!  What a wonderful site!  My dog was diagnosed about 4 weeks ago and was put on Pancreatic Powder. He has started to gain back a little of the 20 pounds he lost, but we can tell he is allergic to the powder.  He has many allergies and is being treated with bimonthly shots and a strict diet.  We had his allergies under control until this diagnosis caused him to be put on the powder.    Becasues of his allergies we are looking into alternatives.  Has anyone used "Wholistic Digest-All Plus" or any product like this that is a plant based Digestive Enzyme?  I would appreciat any information anyone has good or bad.  Thanks in advance

Hi Lynn

Thought I'd let you know about my GSD Dexter.

When  he was about 6 months old he was diagnosd by our vet as having Pancreatic insufficiency.

Like you I desperately tried for a few months with everything my vet suggested and struggled with a very poorly dog. Eventually someone told me to try pig pancreas which worked a treat, but then offal became band, so I eventually put him on Pancreatic powder. Unfortunately all the types of food that I gave him with the powder still regularly made him runny.

Eventually, through the internet I found someone who used the powder with Wafcol fish & corn which I tried.

I mixed the powder with a small amount of Whiskas fish cat food (as he really seemed to love the cats food, and to disguise the smelly powder) and then mixed this in with a couple of cups of the wafcol.(twice daily). Within days his poo was normal and he is 11 years old next month.

I also stopped all his vaccinations etc. as after some research and previous experience, I wondered if vaccinating animals who already had problems might make them ill again.

He has needed the vet about 3 times in the past 10 years (Not for EPI problems!) The last time was 2 years ago when he was kicked in the head by a horse. I voiced some concern over anti-biotics being used as he had EPI, and the vet had to look back at her records as she couldn't believe that he had EPI, as she said he was one of the healthiest looking dogs she had ever seen.

Dexter did get a skin allergy one summer when my husband and I went away for the week-end and left him with our grown up children (He gets very upset with change!). The vets tried a few things, but he had a patch (approx 6 inches round) like leather under his front leg through scratching. I eventually put pure lavender oil on three times a day and he stopped scratching, and by the winter he had a lovely thick coat again,and although he still has a scratch now and again we have never had a problem like this again.      

Last thing. If you do try the wafcol food, don't try any other flavour. Even salmon & potato made him a bit runny and this is recommended for dogs with delicate tummies!

I cannot say that this will definately work for all dogs but I was told by vets that Dexter would be lucky to see 2 years old and he is now 11!

Lorraine




April 3, 2010 at 6:04 AM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 12946

Hi Lorraine and Welcome~


Thank you for sharing your experience. Although normally "most" EPI dogs do not do well with grain, especially something like corn, there are some EPI dogs that do not do well until fiber is indeed added to their diet. SO this is very helpful... especially for those particular EPI cases.  And we have a lot of members here from the UK so the more food options we can share with others ...the better.

I checked on the Wafcol foods and what struck me as very interesting is that it has various types of food to help with various intolerance.... one of them being rice, some for gluten issues some for various protein issues. My non-EPI dog actually has issues with rice... but i have never seen it listed as an actual intolerance.I thought that was interesting.



--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make chnages to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content  her diet. She now gets 1/2 Annamaet Lean kibble and 1/2 TOTW kibble with either lean pork loin meat, or chicken breast or tuna twice a day. She also receives  9 or 10 units of Vetsulin (depending on her blood glucose reading) a pork based insulin. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. And now we have to monitor her exercise.   It's been one heck of a journey... but aside from all that Izzy has gone thru with her health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


April 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Lorraine
Member
Posts: 2

Hi again,

Yes the vets did try Dexter on chicken and Rice early on which made him very ill. He also tried some very expensive veterinary diets like Science diet which again just made him much worse, and as I said before we changed to Wafcol Salmon & Potato as we were told that this was good for dogs with digestion propblems, but again this made him ill.

We tried James Wellbeloved food and other foods and I was told that he is intolerent to pork, beef and lamb at various times during the early days, and I must admit that fish had not been something that I had considered but it definately did the trick.

This food is all he has as even a dog treat would make him loose, but this has kept him healthy and happy for 10 years now so I don't think that the absence of the odd bone or dog biscuit is too much of a sacrifice.

April 3, 2010 at 12:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Donna
Member
Posts: 4186

HI Lorraine and welcome to you and Dexter!

 

Yup, every single EPI dog is different, that's for sure!  I actually stabalized my Tara on lamb and rice kibble many years ago...

--

Donna

 

Owned by Tara, a 8 YO GSD w/EPI and DM dx'd at about a year old. Fed Taste of the Wild Lamb formular kibble and enhance this diet with cooked meat, veggies and fruit, Enzymes: Pancreatin 8x - 1 tsp per cup of food. Suppliments include 1000 mg Wild Salmon oil, Glucosomine/Chondrotin/MSM and Probiotic acidophilus. Stable since 2005 Also owned by sidekicks' Zoey my rescued GSD and Max, a 10 MO PWC rescue - along with Tess (GSD) and  Zeke (PWC) with Angel wings

April 3, 2010 at 12:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

DryFur
Member
Posts: 41

Not sure if it will help, but I know that someone here suggested I try Vitamin E oil which comes in small bottle at Walgreens. I squirt a little in my palm and rub hands together then apply to Susie's Coat as she too had allergies and lots of hair loss in the beginning of enzymes use.

 

Worked great at least I think it did as the vet tried a few medications and finally said Susies is just prone to allergies and the enzymes are triggering it not much we can do. But someone suggested the oil on her coat and she got better or she adjusted to the enzymes still not sure but I think the oil helped and within a few days I seen improvements.

 

Worth a try and cheap plus can't hurt.

--

Lisa Kelly Parent of (Susie Q) 12 year old Min Pin & (Phebe) 3 Year Old Burmese

Kittycondos.com

DryFur.com

April 4, 2010 at 12:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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