EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Gosh Becky, your views in Alaska are just HEAVENLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig ~

Poos are back peddling again????????? Geez....... I wish we had a magic answer... but don't... can you give the CREON 25 a few more days before you introduce the Tylan..... just to confirm that it is not the enzymes dosage.... and then hopefully introduce the Tylan and after a few days on that hopefully hopefully hopefully... you start to see more consistency..........

Glad your vet consuled with a Specialist in the US... and got the same feedback as what we say on the FORUM.... like you said- - peer exchange is good.

Craig -

Boss is currently on two Creon 25 with two cups of kibble, three times a day. Australia has always sounded like a grand place to live but after hearing about the limited selection of kibble, enzymes and antibiotics available there it does sound like a challenging place to live with puppers that have health issues.

The water in the cove where our house is drops right off and the dogs cannot walk in and out right here...  several times they have managed to fall in while goofing off which requires us to help yard them out. So their lake playtime is limited to when we go to visit friends that live on the main portion of the lake where the water shoreline is more gradual for easy access. Between those visits they have their wading pool here in the yard which keeps them busy trying to shovel all the water out and me busy refilling it.

Olesia, yes the Tylan will take 5-7 days to arrive so she'll be on Creon 25 for that period with the Metro.

Becky, often challenging is not the word. Annoying, now that's the word, yes, that's it.

Craig

I so agree Craig;  it is annoying that we have such a limited selection of foods available here.   I was even told that there would be no chance of getting the Metagenics Intrinsi B12 tablets here & to just 'give up'.  Metagenics were no help at all.  Luckily I just kept plodding on & found the Lucky Vitamin Co., & they said they'd send them but to check with our customs first.  Fortunately no problem with vitamins.    The food situation is ridiculous though.  As if the grain free foods wouldn't sell here.  Probably a competition thing;  who knows. 

Lynn & girls.

Oh Lynn, you've reminded me, I meant to send you a link to where I got Lulu's Metagenics Intrinsi as the shipping was much less than the Lucky Vitamin Co whom I think wanted USD20+ postage for one little bottle of pills! Wonder if Kobe is on them in Perth too...

I got hers at www.iherb.com with shipping to Oz at USD4. They also sent me a marketing thingy whereby if you pop in this code EQI615 you get USD5 off which means shipping is one greenback more than free and they send me points or kibble or something, i'm not really into all these rewardy things, lousy coupon memory syndrome, but free is free! Given the Aussie Peso has tanked lately every little bit counts. Took 5 days to get here and interestingly was shipped from New Zealand??

I find people keep telling me it's an economy of scale thing - big place, far away, few people, spread out. I've gotta say the Australian 'just give up' attitude doesn't help   What would our American cousins think of us? Frankly if it wasn't for the The Internets I don't know where 'Lu would be...

Craig 

Thanks for that Craig.  I will certainly look into it.  Sounds good.  

I think my bottle of Metagenics cost something like $90.00 when they added the postage.   Certainly expensive but if it works, then we do what we must do.  Will definately help if we can get it cheaper next time.  Thankyou.

I do think Samantha got two bottles of Metagenics Intrinsi tablets sent here a little while ago.  Not sure if she's using them yet though.  I think she used Lucky Vitamins also, so she will be interested in this link.  I think she is away in Bali now or she's about to go.  Lucky girl. 

Lynn & girls.

Dear All,

Thought I'd ask for some Anti Vs Probiotic tweaking advice. We've discontinued the Metro and started the Tylan as of two days ago. Lulu's diet is as per below and in her profile but I'm wondering if we're making it a little too complicated given that we haven't got the SIBO under control (yet again). Specifically I'm wondering if having probiotics in the mix at this stage is a good thing or potentially hindering the (new) antibiotic. Any first-hand experiences out there??

I realise I am being presumptuous given we've only just started the Tylan and it needs say 30 days, it's just that Lulu has been on antibiotics for around 90 continuous days and was on them in Dec/Jan as well (she had a grass seed lodged in her paw before EPI was diagnosed), hence the introduction of prebiotics a month ago.

We're alternating pro with pre at 2-4 hourly intervals (closer to 2). We just want to maximise the Tylan so are curious as to others early experiences while stabilising their dogs. We have pulled the Creon back from 25k to 20k as the increase seemed to make no material difference in stool quality and do not wish to 'over-enzyme'. Her best period was early on with Creon @ 10k for 3 days just before that round of antibiotics ran out, then SIBO exploded again so we went back on the Metro, we've never regained that ground. We still consider Lulu as still being in the process of stabilisation. 

Poops are still yellow, voluminous, mucoid, stinky and soft occasionally blobby. On a scale of 1-5 stars varying between 1 and 3.5

Experiences welcome particularly on stabilisation timeframes.

Craig

P.S. We're just reintroducing the Spluttery Elm at bedtime as it seemed to have the opposite effect the first time around when we added it to the mix in May, i.e. looser stools instead of firmer, which goes against the literature but we're thinking something else may have been influencing the loose stoolage so are trying again.

BTW my iPhone is filling up with poop...so much for cutting edge technology 

Craig

Hi!  You've been so kind about posting on my thread as I'm dealing with trying to stabilize Murphy and here you are going through your own ordeal!  Just saw this tread and popped in to say 'hi'!  Wish I could offer help.  I read a few of the posts but I can't read 200+, too stressed out right now but I'll keep popping in to see how things are going.

One thing I can mention, though you may already be aware of it.  You can buy MIF tabs at this site: https://ecolifeus.3dcartstores.com/Metagenics-Intrinsi-B12Folate-180T_p_593.html and Jane, the owner, has them on sale right now for $32 (USD) which is cheaper than you can find them anywhere else that I've seen.  She does ship overseas but I don't see Australia listed but you can email her at Jane@ecolifeus.com or call at (478)731-8015 and ask.  At the same time, tell her you have an EPI dog and she'll give you a 30% discount on all future orders when the sale ends.  She doesn't own an EPI dog but she has several rescue dogs with health issues and well understands the financial burdens we're under.  She's very kind.  Hope this can be of use to you!

Take care,

Lora, Audie and Murphy

Hi Craig ~

So glad you wrote an update about Lulu- - i have been wondernig about her all weekend and was planing on asking about her today.

Boy, her poop sure sounds crappy..... my first question for you is this the food you are feeding her???

Hi Olesia, yes that's it, we've been on it for over a month after easing out the raw on vet's advice and the logic of cancelling out as many variables as possible (ie not encouraging a volatile bacterial environment), have to check my log for exact dates. We originally tried the Royal Canin Hypoallergenic but the higher fat content turned her poop to a blobbymush with 12-18 hours so we took it out. We tried it again in a 1:3 ratio (RC:EP) again in May in an effort to get more fat in her diet unfortunately with the same effect. 

While the weight loss has stopped (ish) we're fluctuating within 1kg (2.2 pounds) and not making any progress with weight or poop. All the while in our minds is that this animal's system is still under stress and we can't quite crack it.

Our thinking was to give the Tylan a run (it's been a hard slog to get the stuff) and then change diet. I've a notion that a home-cooked one might be best and get rid of kibble altogether but that's apropo of nothing in particular other than it ain't working this way! (apologies, I get impatient from time to time)

Arrrggh!

Craig

Craig ~

If i was a betting person.... i'd bet the farm that this food is the cause of Miss Beautiful Red-headed Lulupants to continue to have SIBO issues:

Ingredients: Ground Yellow Corn, Ground Brown Rice, Pork Meal, Oatmeal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved With Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Egg Product, Anchovy & Sardine Meals, Flaxseed, Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Carrots, Peas, Inulin, Yucca Schidigera Extract, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes Of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. subtilus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae, and Aspergillus niger.

When she was on the BARF... didn't she start to have good poops? Why did your vet recomend she come off the BARF.. Although some EPI dogs do not do well on raw... others do great...........

Craig... the two worse ingredients for an EPI are the top ingredients in this food.................*sigh*........

between all of this and the psyllium ...which is a great soluble fiber for an EPI dog ... but might be too much fiber with the Eagle Pack food she is getting.

Hey glad you got the Tylan now.....and i sure can understand your frustration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't you say you were looking into Artemis Food... if so and if you want to stay with Kibble... i would try a "sample" couple of bags of: .. and to lower the fat, add some fresh human grade meat to her servings.... this way you can still have the" balance" of commerically prepared, but lower the fat & carb % by adding fresh meat. .Just a thought.....

INGREDIENT Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols),Chicken, Flavor Enhancer, Tomato Pomace, Natural Mixed Tocopherols,Choline Chloride, Dried Chicory Root, Dried Skim Milk, Kelp, Carrots,Apples, Tomatoes, Blueberries, Spinach, Cranberries, Rosemary Extract,Parsley Flake, Pea Powder, Green Tea Extract, Barley Grass Extract,L-Carnitine, Enterococcus Faecieum, Lactobacillus Casei, LactobacillusAcidophilus, Saccharomyces Cerevesiae Fermentation Solubles, DriedAspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, IronProteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, ZincSulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate,Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin ASupplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, SodiumSelenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D Supplement ,Folic Acid. Guaranteed Analysis Crude Protein, min. 42.0% Crude Fat, min. 22.0% Crude Fiber, max. 3.0% Moisture, max. 10.0% Vitamin E, min. 300 IU/kg Biotin, min. 0.25 mg/kg Omega-6 Fatty Acids, min.* 3.4% Omega-3 Fatty Acids, min.* 0.6%:

AUSTRALIA ARTEMIS Pet Food Australia

Contact: Judith Strachan

Tel: 03 9717 4707

Email: sales@artemispetfood.com.au

Website: http://www.artemispetfood.com.au

The vet recommended to come off the raw because of the increased risk of of a high and unknown bacterial content of the raw food.

She had good poop for about 3-4 days immediately after we started the Creon (we were incorrectly advised to use Enzypex originally as the sole enzyme). Then the anits ran out (Metro) and with another 3 days we were back to crap crap. We were on raw (BARF) alone, then we introduced the Royal Canin with the above results and then the Eagle Pack and eased out the raw. 

Recently the Artemis came up on the forums through Kerry I think, but it's new here in Australia, only available online and out of stock.

To be honest I'd rather not predicate our dog's well-being on kibble manufacturers but will try anything, kibble, raw or cooked to get her back on the straight and fully-formed poop train.

Craig

And...my next thought (boy i'm full of them today...) would be if you do switch foods... eliminate stop giving  Lulu everything you are giving her now...except forL:

• Enzymes
• Tylan
• And however much of the B12 you are still giving her even if sporadically

Wait 3-5 days.... see what happens with the change in food... if poops improve at all or not..... if they imrpove... even slightly... i would continue with the new diet and then... SLOWLY and at one at a time... i would add back the following ingredients , watch record and wait 3-5 days for each and then add the next item back to her diet:

These are the things i would add back and in this order, ... my thinking is that this is the only way you will be able to figue out the what keeps replenishing SIBO in foxy little Miss Lulupants:

1. L- Glutamine

2. Psyllium  (but start off with 1/2 teaspoon for breakfast only... wait & record results for 3 days... then add 1/2 tsp for dinner and do the same drill.... then last add 1/2 tspoon for Lunch, etc. If all this works... then increase to 1 tsp for one meal watch record 3 days.....my thinking is that although psyllium is good... she may be getting too much....

3. Enzyplex

4. Probiotics

These are jsut my thoughts. I put probiotics at the end because there are a handful of dogs that cannot handle probiotics.... mine benig one of them.. every damn time, SIBO kicks in, but then again, i have not had to keep my Izzy on antibiotics for a long duration either and she also get a lot of natural probiotics because she gets raw meaty bones tossed out in the yard periodically..... but this is why i am suggesting adding probiotics at the very end... just in case Lulu is one of those rare dogs like mine who cannot handle probiotics.............we jsut don't know...........*sigh*

Thanks Olesia, I think we're hitting the keyboards at the same time...

Unfortunealey the Eagle Pack was the best available to us in Australia at the time. As it appeared the fat content was the variable most affecting Lulu we were concentrating on that. As far as I'm aware there's only one other grain free kibble available called Evo but I haven't been able to get it even though it's only stocked by an unethical retailer called Pets Paradise I'd be prepared to sup with the devil to get Lulu stable. Australia is a great place to live providing you're healthy, wealthy and, well two outta three ain't bad.

We've been operating on the one change at a time routine (3-5 days) except when Lulu's weight was in free-fall when it was anything goes.

Not sure which way to go. What's your opinion of the Pro vs Anti regime at this stage?

thanks

Craig

we are definately keyboarding at the same time.

What's your opinion on changing diets suddenly? I've heard it's ok and not ok.

I keep thinking that dogs used to get whatever was available as table scraps way back when and be fine, but then they didn't have EPI...? 

I think stripping everything back and starting again is a good idea but having seen her weight in free-fall before we're a little gun shy. Not sure, should probably go to bed as it's the early hours here and all smart puppies are tucked up in bed.

Craig