EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Whether it's the metronidazole and tylosin, the B12, the hetastarch or a combination of it all, kaisa seems to be doing better.

She's getting more energy and she's no longer tearing apart every roll of paper towels, napkins or other paper products.  I also forgot to put the loaf of bread away right when we got home, and she didn't attack it and scarf it down....as she has actually gotten it off the counter and scarfed down a loaf in the past.   So maybe the pica is a thing of the past for us.  *crossing fingers*

She still has loose runny stools despite the antibiotics, ponazuril, and enzymes, although she just started the enzymes yesterdy afternoon.

Can I add the tylosin to her food after I've incubated it with the enzymes?  How long can I leave the food for her before the enzymes won't do their job?  She hasn't ate yet this morning (I tried it back in the TOTW Pacific Stream).   I'm getting ready to make her lunch meal which will probably be raw chicken breast.

Hi Danilynn,

I saw your post at work (you were posting at the same time I was), but I had to run and spring Zoey from the groomer first!  LOL I hope you didn't put the tylan in the food...It's VERY bitter.  My understanding is that most folks give it in some kind of irrisistable concoction, such as cream cheese or something.  Most dogs will not eat their food with the stuff in it.

As to how long you can leave enzymes on food, you need to understand that the enzymes do their job in the fist 30 or so minutes of intubation on the food, so the food is pre-digested, if you will.  Many folks pre intubate the food then leave it in the fridge for like 24 hours.  The enzymes are reactivated when the food is then warmed to room temp. or slightly warm.  You never want to microwave them as it destroys enzymes.  Hope this helps!

Hi DaniLynn,

So glad to hear that Kaisa is improving.  I do not feed raw, so someone else can chime in about the length of time in that regard. My Kolby had trouble with food until we went to Royal Canin Digestive LF (prescription diet).  It and the enzymes stopped the diarrhea immediately.  Not all dogs do well on prescription food, but Kolby responded very well.

Also the amount of enzymes might need to be adjusted in order to stop the diarrhea.  It is challenging in the beginning trying to get the right balance--my husband and I were wrecks at first, because nothing seemed to be working; then when we found the right food, it all came together--so far.  

The tylosin is very very bitter, so I put mine into empty capsules that you can buy in vitamin or health food stores (pharmacies around here do not have them). Some dogs may not be bothered by the taste of the tylosin, but some will associate the taste of it with the food and then not want to eat.  I did not want to take that chance.  

The empty capsules are very inexpensive $4 -$5 for a couple hundred. (Either gelcaps or veggie caps are fine) and you can probably get them online once you know what you want.  The "OO" size will hold 1/4 tsp. divided into the two parts of the capsule.    The "O" size will not.  You will have to use two capsules.  I use a baby medicine dropper without the plunger, but if it gets clogged or you can't find one, a folded sheet of paper works fine too.  You just crease the paper in half, measure out 1/4 tsp of the tylosin, put the tylosin in the crease of the paper, pour it into both parts of the capsule, then put them together.  At first, it is tricky being steady, but once you get used to it, it is easy--

I usually do a week's worth at a time (Kolby needs one capsule twice a day) and keep them in a pill caddy, so I won't forget, or if I do forget it will be right there to remind me (some of us have these senior moments)

Kolby still loves to eat paper towels and cardboard, so glad to hear you are having better luck with the pica.

Barb

Hello DaniLynn,

I do like Barb and put the Tylan in "00" capsules except I use a capsule filling gizmocalled "Cap.M.Quik" that I picked up at the health food store with the capsules.  Was only $15.00 and fills 50 capsules pretty quick.

Glad that Kaisa is already perking up some

So great that you are already seeing improvement in Kaisa.  Magnificent!  She is such a beautiful girl. 

Hi DaniLynn.  Yes, you can add the tylan after incubating.  I do just before setting it down and stir it up well.  Some do have problems w/ the taste, some don't.  We are one that it has never bothered him as long as it is stirred up real well.  And I know others also, who have had no problems.  It's going to depend upon Kaisa.

For the raw chicken breast, is it ground?  I feed raw and everything should be ground.  Makes it easier for the digestion and for the enzymes.

I am wondering w/ the diarrhea, if you were/are having an intolerance to the food?  Are you just now going back to TOTW?  Or is she not wanting to eat it?    I am hoping by now, with the enzymes, you are seeing an improvement.  If not, you may want to talk to your vet re food intolerance and/or try cold switching to a novel protein, one that she hasn't had in the past.  or a prescription food like Barb ending up going to.

Good luck.

she just started the enzymes yesterdy afternoon - average transit time for meals to pass through is 12-15 hours

you should probably now - start to see poops from meals that have been treated with the enzyme and hopefully will be starting to look better

How long can I leave the food for her before the enzymes won't do their job? after mixing the food and enzyme, let the mixture sit for somewhere between 20 to 60 minutes - some dogs are good with shorter times, some do better with longer times - you have to experiment with this to see which is best for Kaisa

The enzymes will stop working on the food in the bowl in roughly 45 minutes - after that, any work that they do will be inside the body

Thanks, everyone.

honestly, food has been an issue as she isn't fond of the TOTW formula I have.  I plan on stopping by the grain co-op to see if they have any samples as I doubt TSC does.  So I've been feeding her whatever she will eat.  Ground turkey, chopped up chicken breast and Hills Canine i/d.  I don't want to feed raw as it's quite costly, but was hoping adding some of the above things would entice her to eat the kibble, too.

I was asking about the length of time because when I mix it, I let it set for at least 20 minutes before giving it to her, but sometimes she won't eat until after an hour after I've set it down for her.

HI again DaniLynn,

I know she has been having issues with eating which is why I was trying to get back to you before you fed her lunch and added the Tylan in it...   Everyone is right, the loose stool will continue to happen probably for a short while until the tylan and enzymes kick in.

She should be fine if she eats her food within an hour...Some folks even intubate it that long.

Hi DaniLynn,

Teddy has slways taken his Tylan mixed into this food after incubation. Tylan is bitter but I had no problem with giving it to him this way. iI doesn't work with all dogs but many do take it with their food. I would try it in the food first. If she refuses food because of the Tylan then you could try putting it in a capsule. You don't want to bother with the capsules if you don't have to. Try the easy way first then take it from there.

If you want to make her food ahead of time and refrigerate that's fine - i make several days worth. You can warm it in the microwave AFTER the enzymes have done their job. You make the food, let it sit anywhere from 20 to 60 min, then refrigerate. When you want to feed her then you can warm it up in the microwave.

I warm the food by adding some hot water in the sink, then setting his dish in there. Many people do make it up ahead of time and refrigerate.

Hi Kathy,

I have to disagree here...If she has an issue with food already, adding Tylan to it is not a good idea...It'll just make her more wary of food and she needs to eat, I agree with pilling her or any other way of delivering it.

Donna,

I don't see the harm in trying it in the food since many dogs do take it that way - might be just as many that won't. But she won't know until she tries and I think you try the easy way first. If she doesn't have to capsule the Tylan it would be easier for her. I'm not saying the Tylan in the food will definetly work but my opinion is it is worth a try.

Kathy,

I realize this is just my experience, but Tara quit eating food completley when I tried this. DaniLynn has already stated that her dog isn't fond of food and I just want to make sure she doesn't completely go OFF her food like Tara did as it's not a good place to be and Kaisa cannot afford to loose any more weight.

For those of you who have dealt with a very skinny dog refusing to eat, you'll understand where my post was coming from.

Ola ladies... :-)    Sooooo glad to hear that Kaisa sounds like she is doing better!!!    I always added the Tylan right to Jackie's food - but then again, she never had an issue with eating in the first place.  As for eating cardboard...well....this pic tells all...it's a little blurry as it was an action shot   :-)

Michelle, what an adorable picture!  Who ate all the oreos?

As for tylan in the food and not wanting to eat, mixing it into the food at the end has worked for us.  And if Hondo was in a bad flare, I would have a hard time getting him to eat.  Tylan or not in it.  there was one point he would want Molly's during an intolerance and not his own.  So he was hungry, just wouldn't eat his food.  This is why I brought up the intolerance and possibly checking into a different type of food.   I think the dogs could think/know it's the food making them sick and refuse to eat for that reason.  And it's the TOTW that Kaisa doesn't want to eat, so a different food may turn things around.  And she may be able to use the tylan the easy way.  It's worth a try.  And if it is SIBO at play, again, I've had probs w/ him not wanting to eat.  Any time the tummy hurts, food is the first to go.  It may take some time to get all sorted, but it can come together.

OK...so what...I ate the cookies...burp... :-)

Michele,

What a cute photo of Jackie!!!

Again, this is just my experience, but I wouldn't take the chance of putting the Tylan in Kaisa's food...Danilyn is already having problems getting her to eat as she has posted in many previous threads and right now, she really, really needs to eat.  It's NO fun when they won't eat, trust me. I've been there, done that and in fact do own the tee-shirt.

Hi DaniLynn ~

First... SO  glad to hear that Kaisa is showing improvment already.

Okay... i am chuckling... reading the posts above ....and i just got to say... Welcome to the Wacky World of EPI!

The above is all true all accurate and yet very conflicting..... which drives so many of us with EPI dogs absolutely bonkers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With EPI dogs although they all have EPI and do require same treatment, )... the real confusion comes in the administration of the antibiotics, the enzymes, the food, or the B12.... Each dog can greatly vary in how they respond to the adminsitration.

My personal attitude is to take into consideration all the suggestions... because you just don't know which one will work best for your dog.... but if you are not sure what to try first, with an EPI dog ....err on the side of caution... try the least "offensive" technique first and then depending on the results... try the next suggestion.

As an example, I would try the Tylan in  capsules or cream cheese first...  after she has been on the "camoflaged"  Tylan for a few days.... then i would try just mixing it in her food... if she eats it great... if not... go back to camoflaging it.  This is what dealing with EPI is all about....we know the basics, the Enzymes, Antibiotics, Diet & B12... but it is the "how" that can be confusing.

I am lucky, my EPI gal LOVES to eat.... but OMG... if i put it in her food... she will leave to bowl and high tail it out of the room...... yet other dogs will eat their food with it... no problem........

Is she eating the TOTW better now???  I was thinking about this and It might not be that she doesn't like it... it just might be that the SIBO and low B12 is making her not want to eat.... or it could be taht she really doesn't like it.   Just a thought... but regarding food enticers some that worked great for us is real STINKY packed in water  kipers (herring)... just crumble a few bits on top of the food just before you serve it... Another  thing that worked for us is buy fresh chicken livers. Puree in the blender... after food has been incubated with enzymes for however long it works best for Kaisa... THEN add 2 tablespoon of pureed raw chicken liver on top of the food... my dogs REALLY like this.

Oh... and to save $$$... if you do want to try other foods... see if you can buy little sample bags instead of spending lots of money on full size bags of food.

And just a FYI.... some dogs poop firm up right away when on anti's ... others can take longer... for example mine took 2 weeks before i saw any improvement at all!  But once we did .. it was great!

Hopefully you got the2nd pckg of enzymes!

Michele - LOVE the pic of Jackie with the cardboard.  I may have spoken too soon, as I've found some TP cardboard on the living room floor yesterday and today. :- /

Right now I'm giving Kaisa her Tylan mixed up in some Laughing Cow Swiss Cheese (you know the little wedges).  I got a sample of the TOTW Prairie and Wetlands formulas today.  I gave her the Wetland formula at lunch...she only ate half the sample bag after mixed wtih the enzymes.  We'll try the Prairie formula for dinner...  Wish me luck!

Olesia - It looks like the enzymes did arrive on Thursday but because of the warning about not being overheated, they did not deliver to my mailbox.  I got a card yesterday afternoon that they were available to be picked up at the post office.  I got them today and the ice pack was still cool to touch.  Thank you again, so much for helping us out!  It's very much appreciated.

It looks like I will have another job interview this week and they finally fixed part of hubby's pay issue.  So things are looking up all around.  Thanks again for the help!