EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Unfortunately Apollo has had a setback after doing so well in the last few weeks.  He has had diaherea yesterday and today.  I noticed his poops getting softer since the switch to the Wellness, and then today just diaherea.  I had been mixing his new food with the old food gradually, but for the past 3 days he has been completely on the Wellness. 

The past two days he has gone back to getting in the garbage, and kitty food that he did before his dx.  He ate a huge amount of noodles last night from the garbage!  He is breathing heavier too and just doesn't seem as well as he has overall.

The new food is the only major change - he did miss his daily MIF B12 and 1 tylan does a couple days ago by accident.  I am still feeding 6 cups per day with 6 tsp. enzymes - spread out over 3 meals and incubating for 1 hour. 

Any ideas? I am waiting for a batch of enzymes from Diane, and that will be another change.  Should I wait a few days and see what happens?  Add more enzymes? Switch food again?  Thanks for any advice - I know you have all been through the same things.  I was so happy to see him on an upward swing and want to keep it up.

Hi Tonia

So sorry to hear about Apollo's setback.  I feel a little useless with advice concerning dogs with EPI since I have the cat with it but I do have some thoughts about the food.  Shortly after my dog Chance came to live with me he suddenly got very sick with diarrhea and fever.  The vet diagnosed him with pancreatitis.  After eliminating everything else, the vet determined that Chance got sick from eating too much kitty food.  I now have to feed kitties up high or in a closed off room so he can't get to it.  He loves that kitty food.  That was 3 years ago and he hasn't had another bout of pancreatitis.  I hope that Apollo's setback is something as simple as that and not an EPI related setback.  

while it could be the Wellness causing issues

it DEFINTELY is the scrounging for other food - eating ANYTHING untreated is going to cause setbacks for him

I forget - was he being treated for SIBO????

Yes he is on 1/4 tsp. tylan 2x per day.  He has been on this for about 2 weeks.  Apollo had basically started stopped doing the kitty food/kitty litter box scavenging as soon as we started treated him for EPI.  Same with the garbage digging.  The diaherea cold definately be from the noodles/cat food last night, but his poops definately did start to become softer before then.  And I'm wondering why the scavenging started again too.

Hi Tonia.  Have you tried tweaking the enzymes +/-?  It could be the food may have more protein or something than the old food.  If +/- the enzymes (say 1/8 tsp) after a few days, if better, go same way another 1/8 tps, if worse, try the other way.  It could take time for Apollo to adjust to the new food.  ANd yes, scavenging could be causing this now, but after getting him thru this, i'd try the tweaking.  Do you have slippery elm to give while getting thru this?

Hi Tonia - ugh...since he did some scavenging it may take a few days before you really know what is going on - for it to get out of his system.   Wellness did not work for Jackie - that was one of the ones we tried...I would give it a week - make sure he is eating nothing but his food and if it isn't right you may want to consider changing food.  Did the soft poop start once you got him on the Wellness or was that before it?  Def try tweaking the enzymes and see how that works but it took us 4 foods before one agreed...Hugs and love to Apollo... 

Hi Tonia, eating food with without enzymes will do it, SIBO will do it, grain filled cat food might do it or it may just be happening on the road to stability. A couple of dud poops is a good heads-up but see how he goes over the next few days to a week. The on again off again poop bonanza we had with Lulu lasted months but overall it was improving as the SIBO receded and we got the diet right. Good game no?

Craig

Hi Tonia,

Sorry to hear about Apollo's setback.  Mia is going through the same thing right now with the switch over of food.  She too is scavenging through garbage and eating kitty food.  It hasn't affected her too bad, but the other night she got into some spare rib bones which really scared me.  Fortunately, the bones came out okay.  She actually got kind of constipated from it?  I have decided to hang in there with the food for now and see how Mia goes.  You may want to give it a little more time before switching yet again.  I am trying so hard to keep Mia from "cheating" just as you are with Apollo.  It is tough right now because they are so hungry all the time.  Hang in there!

Thanks for the advice guys.  The softer poops definately started once we started the Wellness.  I'm sure the diaharea is because of the garbage and cat food scavenge.  I'm just wondering why he did it - he pretty much gave it up after we started the enzymes.  His activity level is much lower, and he has that mopey, unhappy look again.  And he is STARVING!  He finishes his bowl and looks at me like - is that all?  And he is eating  6 cups a day!  Also drinking lots more water, and more burping again.

It may be the Wellness I will keep at it for another few days and then try something else.

Sounds like his body is not processing the nutrients if he is starving after eating...did you try upping the enzymes?

No Michele, I haven't tried that yet.  I'm thinking maybe that particular food needs more enzymes than the previous one?  I was going to wait a few days before changing anything, waiting for a poop today to see how that goes.  Also, this may sound weird but I'm wondering if 1 cup of Wellness is less than one cup of the S.D.  The S.D is much smaller kibble so I'm wondering if you can fit more into a one cup measure than the Wellness. The Wellness looks very different than the S.D. after I intubate also - much looser - that could be why the looser poops too.

Apollo seems pretty tired today, but he did initiate play with Grace - so he must be feeling a bit better.  Will update after the poop today, thanks!

Different foods def have different feeding requirements - in the beginning I went by what the bag recommended and did 150% of that until Jackie told me to cut back (basically started leaving some).   You might want to cut back some of the water if you feel the incubation is making the food to mushy - just a thought...Keep us posted on the poop! :-))   

Michele - I was thinking the same thing about the water, I will add less this batch.  No poop yet, I asked my son today (he's 15) if Apollo pooped on his morning walk and his answer was "I dunno".  Grrr!

Gotta love kids...LOL!      Hey - he walked Apollo - that alone is huge!!!  

Well Apollo's poops are getting more solid, but I can tell he doesn't feel well.:( He is either anxious or lethargic.  He moans everytime he lays down. He is drinking HUGE amounts of water and peed on the carpet last night.  He was doing all this before his diagnosis, but I thought we had gotten past it.  Everytime I turn around, his water bowl is empty.  I keep thinking diabetes,  but wouldn't that have shown up when I did all his blood work? Just not sure what to do and feeling kind of down.

How long has he been on the Wellness?   You might want to consider another food - we use Taste of the Wild Venison and Buffalo and after 4 different foods, that is the one that agreed with Jackie.    Don't feel down (I know easy for me to say) but this is how EPI goes...one day you are happy and thrilled the next worried and afraid - you are still trying to stabilize and there are just so many ups and downs...big hug to you.    Can you summarize and tell us exactly what Apollo is receiving now - sorry, sometimes it gets confusing...

Hi Tonia ~

MyOne dog can't handle Wellness... the carbs are too much in it..... and it sounds like maybe the Wellness is not really agreeing with him .

The catfood with out enaymes may have triggered the bad bad poo

But......i am wondering... the burping could be indicative of a couple of issues....

1. food not agreeing

2. needs more B12

3. possible IBS or IBD also going on and may need very short-term steroids (last resport as steroid are not really good but sometimes necessary)

4. drinking too much water or too fast (but here in lies the question of why.........might be that the food and enzymes need to be tweaked)

One thing that jumps out at me... the Metagenics  B12. I am at a disadvantage cause i do not remember..... but does Apollo have confirmed B12 Deficiency or low B12??? if so... he may very well need the B12 injections and that might be the culprit.

If he is receiving B12 shots and the Metagenics.... then this can't be the problem......

If he doesn't have low B12 and you are just givnig the Metagenics B12 (this is what i do) then it isn't a B12 issue ... unless his B12 recently plummeted which sometimes can happen.

It's crazy isn't it?! 

Keep a log, make one change at a time.. but i think i would first try changing the food to what seemed to work and feeding small meals, but more often.  Monitor how much water he drinks and how fast... ....................also might want to wait a bit after he eats before allowing him to drink ... giving the food time to settle.......

Just some thoughts......

Thanks guys.  He is on the Wellness Core right now, and the bag just ran out.  I think it has to be the food, that is when everything started to change.  I have to buy a new bag tomorrow - so I'm thinking of trying Taste Of the Wild. I purposely bought a smaller bag of the Wellness in case it didn't agree with him, and it seems like it doesn't.  He eats 3 meal a day of 2 cups food /2tsp. enzymes. I just got the enzymes from Diane so I will be starting those Monday.  He was on Science Diet with all that grain and I couldn't wait to get him off it, but maybe it is a hard switch for him.

His B12 is low - I forget the number right now, but on the low end of the spectrum.  My vet is not real proactive about things - I had to insist on him being treated by SIBO and I know she would not think the B12 was necessary, so I just did the MIF on my own.  My gut feeling is that it is the food combined with the the scavenging, combined with a missed B12.  I am bringing him in soon for a weight check and will discuss the B12 then.

No diaharea today, so that is good, but still drinking tons, burping, and moaning when he lies down.  Maybe his tummy is tender?

Hi Tonia,

I have Mia on the Taste of the Wild High Prairie and it is working great! She has had great poops on it.  The only setback we have had was the rib bone incident which caused constipation and then diarrhea for a few days, but now back to firm, dark poops!  Yesterday, her poo was firmer than her sister (my 3 year old rat terrier). It was pretty funny.  I sure hope it works for Apollo too!

BTW, I had to be proactive with my vet on the B12 too.  He has two other EPI dogs in his practice, but I am guessing from what I have encountered so far, they were diagnosed prior to being his patients?  I basically told him the protocol, he looked it up and agreed.  Good luck!

Hi Tonia,

I remember when I was told to use Hills i/d dry food for Bonnie.  Although always a thirsty dog from a puppy, her thirst increased alarmingly when I changed her over to Hills i/d.  OMG, bowls and bowls of water and rivers of pees.  I too thought perhaps diabetes and had her tested and she was clear.   It was just too dramatic a change, so I cold switched her food after five days and her drinking went back to normal (for her).  I even contact Hills to discuse it and whether they have had other comments.  They said they'd never heard of anyone commenting on thirst.  I wonder if it was because it was hydrolised??????

Good luck with the change over, it sure keeps you guessing.  Hang in there