EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency
managing EPI
Forum
| Forum Home > General Discussion > My GSD was just diagnosed with EPI | ||
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Member Posts: 13 |
I am new to this group. In April I had to put my GSD "Jerry Lee" down due to CDRM ( another mainly GSD issue, he was 12) I then began my search for another GSD or two. I contacted the German Shepherd Rescue Group in Atlanta and began my search. On Memorial Day I picked up my new Girl "Bella". She was very thin and the vet who saw her said it was because she was out on her own for awhile and looked like she had 2 litters of puppies and that she was bred very young. I thought I was the right person to fatten her up. However within two days I knew something just wasn't right. I brought her to my vet and they put her on an antibiotic for a Bacterial infection due to her diarreah. Well that didn't really do anything. I went to feeding her boiled chicken and rice and put her on some probiotics. She then lost another 4 lbs . She is 2 years old and now weighs 49 lbs. I started researching on my own and found this site as well as others. I called the vet and asked them to run the blood tests right away. It took a week to get them back but it is now confirmed that she has EPI. We ordered the enzymes last week and I am awaiting a call from the vet any minute for me to pick them up. They said her b12 is fine, but that she still has a bacteria and will also neeed an antibiotic. Thye said to put her on Royal Canine low fat dog food, however, I am mixed on that...not sure. Does anyone have a particular diet that works for them or has anyone used this. I will do what ever it takes to get her to start feeling better. She is hungry all the time...and the sweetest dog ever. I was in the process of adopting another GSD as well that she was found with but... I want to make sure she is given the attention she needs first and that I can get her on the right road to recovery. Thanks for having this forum. | |
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Member Posts: 369 |
Hi Kris, Just wanted to welcome you and Bella to this forum. You've come to the right place and very soon a lot of people - all wise and wonderful - are going to chime in and give you all the right advice on how to tackle EPI and answer all your questions. I'm too new here to be giving any advice but just wanted to let you know that you're in the right place - even though we wish you and Bella didn't have to be here. Wish you all the best! Devika | |
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-- Mahi, the Indian EPI dog, diagnosed at 10 months, now 3 years old. Was 60 lbs, went down to 46 lbs, but now with YOUR help inching towards 59 lbs. Fed 3 times a day - homecooked diet of 1 kg potatoes, 70 gms lentils, 150 gms tapioca, squash, beetroot, carrots mashed together, 2 boiled eggs and 500 ml yoghurt. Since 1st Dec '11 have begun to gradually add TOTW Pacific Stream, pre-softened in hot water with the home-cooked food. 1 Salmon Omega 3 tablet given per day. 1 tablet of Creon 10K given 20 mins before every meal. Very, very active - knock on wood, and seems to have gone from a level 10 of "hungry" to maybe an 8. On 27th July 2011, officially downgraded "hungry" level to 7.
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Member Posts: 884 |
Hello and welcome! First off, good job figuring out EPI. It took me and my vet months to diagnose my big boy. I'm still pretty new at this, but it sounds like you have a decent handle on things so far. Everyone here suggests grain free food, and if you're on a budget like me, you can get Nature's Domain at Costco for almost half the cost of the fancier brands. I put both my dogs on it, even the non-EPI pup loves it. You can get enzymes from EnzymeDiane (www.enzymediane.com) super cheap compared to most vets and other places. It does sound like she might have SIBO along with the EPI, this is common, and Tylan or Metro are good choices for getting it under control. Also, a couple things I've noticed hearing from other newbies... The vet almost always recommends a smaller dose of enzymes than the dog actually needs. The rule of thumb is usually 1tsp per 1cup of food. Let the food sit for awhile before giving it to them, Vito had 'burned lips' for a little bit until I lengthened his wait time. Make sure they tested her B12, this can be really important and sometimes overlooked. Make sure they give enough antibiotics, my vet only gave me a weeks supply, and I wound up having to get help getting more. Keep an eye on her poops, they'll tell you if you're going in the right direction. Post pics if you're not sure, we don't mind, and we're happy to tell you if we think you might need to change something/are doing something right. There's a log in the downloads section. It'll really help with figuring out what works and doesn't work. I'm sure I missed some things, but hopefully the others will chime in as well. Good luck, and bless you for rescuing! | |
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-- Proud mommy to Vito, 3(?) yr old GSD. 90lbs, goal weight 85-90lbs (ACHIEVED!). Tested positive for EPI on March 30th, 2011. His TLI was 1.0, Cobalamin 225, Folate 22. Feeding 2 cups of Taste of the Wild Bison once a day with one teaspoon of Pancreatin 8x enzymes per meal. Also proud mommy of a (non EPI) Belgian Malinois tripod named Lizzie. That means three legs. "Sometimes it takes an imperfection to create perfection."
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Member Posts: 4186 |
Hello Kris and welcome to you and Bella, although sorry to hear that Bella has EPI… That said, once you get it under control, you’ll never know anything was wrong with Bella and you’ll fatten her up just fine! To answer your question, most EPI dogs do best on a grain free diet. There is a list of them in the above food tab. Also, do you have Bella’s numbers for her TLI, B12 and Folate? Often times, a vet will consider B12 fine, when it’s recommended that it be in the higher numbers for EPI dogs as they can plummet rather quickly. The majority of EPI dogs do best on powdered porcine enzymes and the correct ration is 1 tsp per cup of food. As you are in the US, many of us get our enzymes from Enzyme Diane and they are about 1/3 of what you will get charged for the prescription enzymes and they work just as well. Check them out: http://www.enzymediane.com/ | |
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-- Donna
Owned by Tara, a 8 YO GSD w/EPI and DM dx'd at about a year old. Fed Taste of the Wild Lamb formular kibble and enhance this diet with cooked meat, veggies and fruit, Enzymes: Pancreatin 8x - 1 tsp per cup of food. Suppliments include 1000 mg Wild Salmon oil, Glucosomine/Chondrotin/MSM and Probiotic acidophilus. Stable since 2005 Also owned by sidekicks' Zoey my rescued GSD and Max, a 10 MO PWC rescue - along with Tess (GSD) and Zeke (PWC) with Angel wings
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Member Posts: 2190 |
hey and wecome from UK royal canin has corn in it and simply no good for us we wasted a lot of money however there are dogs who do well but they are in the minority as far as EPI goes I would look for a grain free dog food and give 150% of what is the guide on the bag and if you can separate the meals into maybe 3 or 4 to start with it helps the gut to heal keep a log of everything you do and give at the start it is invaluable and photo everything it will help the vet ither than that enzymes maybe from Enzyme Diane as Alyssa says antibiotics such a s Tylan or metrodizole for at least 30 days and b12 shots if necessary good luck
jean | |
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-- Kara:: adopted at five months old 26th December 2009 always hungry more than any of my other dogs became noticeably distressed August 2010 Two vet visits and............. Diagnosed with EPI at 14 months old September 2010 tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611 taking 2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day and eating Nutrix grain free duck and potato kibble and starting to put weight on currently 33 kilos as of 20th June 2011 we also use Tylan if we dont have the time to use the oxytet as it has to be on an empty tum, enzymes at the moment Pancrex granules 3 teaspoons per meal she is 2 yrs old as of 21st July 2011 "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"
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Member Posts: 13 |
Wow. Great infromatin from you all. Thanks for the posts. | |
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Member Posts: 992 |
Kris welcome to the Forum and thank you for rescuing Bella! Good job to find us so fast; she'll be joining the chunky monkey club in no time at all. It can be a bit of a journey to get your pup stabilized in the first few months and lots of it will be trial and error, particularly the food part. We went through 4 foods before we settled on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream. One thing that's really helpful, for you and your vet is to keep a log of everything that goes into Bella and everything that comes out of her. There's a log template available in the downloads section of the site (look way up to the top of the screen and you'll see "Downloads"). The other thing that's helpful but hard to do is to make only one change at a time and wait 3-5 days keeping notes in the log before making another one. That way you can track what works for Bella and what doesn't, because every dog is different and you'll have to find Bella's balance. The more info and pics, especially poop pics you can post here, the better the Forum is able to make suggestions to help. We've all walked this path and are here to help, to laugh and cry with you. Whatever is needed.
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- Barb -
Mom to Cedar, diagnosed with EPI Nov 1, 2010, TLI 1.2, April 2011 B12 310 (150-700), Folate 31 (7-39); Dec 2011 B12 349 (150-700), Folate 18 (7-39); now on B12 injections weekly; 1 3/4 tsp pancreatin 8X/meal, 1 1/4 c Evo Red Meat Grain free + 1/2 c add ins (pork, salmon, sardines, haddock, egg, pumpkin are the usual), 1/3 c water, incubated x 30 minutes; 2 meals/day; current weight 69.9 lbs. Also has Pannus; treated with tacrolimus ointment 2 x daily each eye and gets 100 ug Vit E daily for immature cataracts. Also Mom to pupkids Bree and Griffin, and catkids Abby, Diamond and Max...and skinkid Ayden
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Member Posts: 13 |
I just picked up the meds from the vet. They have me giving her PancreaPowder Plus. 2 teaspoons mixed in her food twice a day. I am to mix 1/8 teaspoon of Tylosin powder with it twice a day as well. I will contact enzyme Diane for the next round...I want to see how this works first. Thanks again. | |
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Member Posts: 4186 |
HI Kris,
I'm assuming you're feeding two cups two times a day? If the answer is yes, then that is the correct starting dosage for enzymes. Just an FYI on the tylan...If Bella has any aversion to food or is any way fickle about eating, you might want to reconcider putting the Tylan in the food...It is very , very bitter and many dogs will not touch their food with it mixed in it. If this happens, you have a couple of options. 1.) You can mix the tylan with some desierable piece of food. The forum owner, Olesia , used to make a pill pocket of sorts with cream cheese to give to Izzy, or you can 2.) Put it in a gel capsule and pill it to Bella. Some dogs will eat the food with the Tylan in it, but many more will not, so this is an option.
When Tara was first diagnosed, we used Viokase (same thing as what you are using) and a $120 bottle lasted me a little over a week. Using Diane's kilo (at about $150), it lasts me a few months...I switched about 5 years ago and I've never looked back and my wallet loves me! | |
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-- Donna
Owned by Tara, a 8 YO GSD w/EPI and DM dx'd at about a year old. Fed Taste of the Wild Lamb formular kibble and enhance this diet with cooked meat, veggies and fruit, Enzymes: Pancreatin 8x - 1 tsp per cup of food. Suppliments include 1000 mg Wild Salmon oil, Glucosomine/Chondrotin/MSM and Probiotic acidophilus. Stable since 2005 Also owned by sidekicks' Zoey my rescued GSD and Max, a 10 MO PWC rescue - along with Tess (GSD) and Zeke (PWC) with Angel wings
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Member Posts: 120 |
Welcome....I'm pretty new too, but only have GREAT things to say about this board...they saved my dog!...its been a few months but he is finally starting to gain weight...he is now 69.8 lbs....he has gain 3.5 lbs this last 3 weeks YAY.... Below is what I feed my dog .....he suffers from PF's also which complicate things...this is why the different meds and have been on them long time....but the EPI is now under control.. I wish you the best of luck...and this board will help with any questions. | |
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-- Jaeger GSD born Nov 21, 2008; Diagnosed 3/4/2011 ; Is on 3 tsp of 6x Plus from Enzime Diane per feeding (3 cups food)....feeding him 2 times a day (lowest weight 3/10/2011 63.9#'s)...TLI 1.7 - B12 408 - Floatum/folate 15.1......Currently on 200mg Cyclosporin once a day for PERIANAL FISTULAS (PF's) problem .... B12 100 mg a day. As of 2/15/2012 he weighs 68 lbs...the vet is happy with this since he is a VERY active dog...goes running for about 45-60 min a day. Food: American Natural Premium Grain Free - comparable to Blue Buffalo Salmon and Sweet Potato(2 cups of food 3x day) Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein, not less than 28%, Crude Fat, not less than 17%, Crude Fiber, not less than 3.5%, Moisture, not more than 10%(http://www.eclipsekennels.com/ingredgrainfree.php
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Administrator Posts: 1945 |
G'day Kris and welcome to you and the lucky Bella (lucky 'cause she found you
You're on the road to wellness management so are off to a great start. i'll echo what Donna said on both a grain free diet (avoid the RC) and masking the Tylan either in a ball of something yummy or encapsulating it using a cheapo capsule machine (1/8 tsp = size 0 capsule). If she takes a while to get rid of any SIBO you may need to increase the doage but play it by ear (and your vet of course). For future reference, the manufacturer's recommended range:
Tylan Dosage for Dogs (administer twice daily with food): 30 lbs - 1/8 tsp 60 lb - 1/4 tsp 90 lb - 3/8 tsp 120 lb - 1/2 tsp
Here's a direct link to the log, it will come in handy to be able to look over changes history as you go.
Craig | |
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Craig Lulu (aka Miss Lulupants) is a 4 year old 'Red Shepherd' (Australian Red Heeler x Long-hair GSD) who lives in Adelaide, South Australia. Diagnosed with EPI in April 2010. Currently on one Creon 25k per meal;
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Member Posts: 2548 |
Welcome to the Forum Kris and Bella! Sounds like you are off to a good start with the enzymes... mix it in her food with a bit of room temperature water (too hot or too cold can hurt the enzymes ability to do it's thing), let it sit for 20 to 30 minutes, give it a good stir and serve. That is wonderful your vet has already prescribed Tylan... hopefully a solid 30 days worth. As Donna mentioned above, you should probably double check with your vet on the B12 numbers.... they really are best to be in the high normal range for EPI pups. Looking forward to hearing that Bella is putting on weight soon! Also, my condolences on the loss of Jerry Lee... cherish the memories | |
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-- ~Becky~
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Member Posts: 1843 |
Welcome Kris and Bella. How lovely of you, Kris to adopt Bella and good for you for doing all the research to get her to good health. I am so glad you found this Forum and could ask for the tests right away. Bella will be thriving in no time. As Donna said, check on the proper dose for the enzymes....you want to start with 1sp per cup at first. Then you can see how Bella's poops are and adjust if you need to. Often the directions on the jar or from the vet say 1tsp per meal and this may not be enough. If you use food manufactured in the normal way, most dogs do best on the grain free foods. Royal Canin Gastrointestinal food is hydrolyzed--which means it is produced in such a way that the dog's digestive system does not recognize any of the ingredients as allergins. It was the only food that Kolby would stabilize on and we went through 5 foods. He has gone from 55 pounds at diagnosis to 80 pounds today. So what does not work for one dog may work for another. I also recommend that you hide the tylan in something as Donna suggested. It is very, very, VERY bitter. We put Kolby's in capsules and he can still taste it. So I would never put it directly on his food or he would never eat it. (but it may not bother other dogs) The beginning of this journey is the most difficult part, but you have lots of people here to help you through it. Bella is one lucky lady to have found you! Let us know the results of her tests and how she is doing. Barb | |
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Member Posts: 2160 |
Welcome from us too, Kris & Bella. You've had lots of great info. already so I wont add to it, other than to say I'm pleased you have found us. Bella will pick up very soon once everything kicks in, & in the meantime, feel free to ask any or as many questions as you like. There will always be someone here who will answer you.
Again welcome. Will look forward to seeing some photo's of Bella. | |
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-- Lynn, From Melbourne, Australia. Owned by Tess (Irish Setter), Grace (English Setter) & Megg, my beautiful 'English' EPI Angel - Forever in my heart. .
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Member Posts: 3926 |
Welcome Kris and Bella - so sorry you have EPI Welcome aboard - there is amazing info to be found here - any questions - just post and the beautiful people of the forum are more than happy to jump in and help. Again - welcome... | |
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-- Michele "No matter how little money and how few possessions you own, having a dog makes you rich" - having 2 makes you even richer! :-)Jackie (back in pic) Diagnosed at 9 mos (09/09) - TLI 0.3 and low end of B12. Pancreatin 8x dosing 3/4tsp per cup. Natures Domain, Trinfac-B Intrinsic Factor daily, probiotics and Duralactin in the am. Stable and happy 115 lbs - thanks to all the beautiful souls on this forum, we could not have done it without YOU. Dexter - Diagnosed 11/10 approx 3 yrs of age. We failed fostering and now he has his forever home
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Site Owner Posts: 7645 |
A very warm welcome to you Kris and of course Bella... although so sorry you have to be here.... Everyone has already given you great suggestions... I too like Donna and many others have switched to EnzymeDiane's enzymes about 5 years ago... i use the 6x which is the same as many of the brand names such Pancrezyme, Viokase.... and my wallet has been happy with me too (as has my EPI dog, Izzy). My Izzy won't touch anything with Tylan mixed in it.... AND Tylan gets air-borne... so before sealing whatever you put the Tylan powder in (if Bella refuses to eat the food with the Tylan mixed in) be sure to wash your hands with soap and water or else little particles of Tylan will cling to your fingers and cross contaminate anything and everything you touch...... i found this out the hard way......... Regarding the Antibiotics.... make sure you give the Tylan twice a day at meal time.... if given without food in their belly it does make some dogs feel yucky. Regarding the B12... if your vet ran the Cobalamin & Folate test (B12)... ask him what the normal B12 range is because Bella's B12 levels (as an EPI dog) needs to be in the upper-mid range or else, or else (as an EPI dog)... she will need B12 injections.... the conservative regimen is one injection weekly for 6 weeks, then once bi-weely for six more, then monthly... then test after one month lapses... to see if the B12 levels are holding at least in the upper mid-range... if so.... you and your vet can decide if the B12 maintenance should be monthly, or once every 3 months or whatever.... A B12 insufficiency occurs in 82% of all EPI dogs. SIBO occurs in almost all EPI dogs Both of these are secondary conditions that also need to be addressed in addition to giving enzymes in order to have opotimal recovery. The Diet for an EPI dog is usually grain-free....anything with 4% or less of fiber......seems to work best. Some do great on the "prescription diets" others do horribly on them.... it appears that better luck is had with "most EPI" dogs with other the counter grain free foods.... some do better with higher protein grain free foods (less carbs) like EVO or Barking at the Moon... while others do terribly on these and do better with mid-range grain free foods such as Taste of the Wild (Wild Salmon, or Lamb) ... the list is endless... definitely check out the Dog Food Options tab in the drop down menu under the Diet tab...... the best thing to do is to wither buy the smallest size bag of food or even ask for a sample bag... this way you can figure out what seems to work best for your dog without wasting a lot of money. Not all EPI dogs do well on all Grain-Free foods.... there is a lot of trial and error involved. This is why we strongly suggest keepng an EPI LOG..... record EVERYTHING you give Bella, and then record the quality of her poo anywhere between 12 and 72 hours after wards. ONce you do all the intitial changes (enzymes, diet, Antibiotics, B12) then when you have to tweak things because Bella isn't getting optimally better.....(if you do not notice positive changes within two weeks) you need to make only 1 change at a time ... watch and record results for 3-5 days before you make another adjustment... Another thing.... when you feed be sure to add a wee bit of warm water to the food & enzyme mixture. Always be sure the enzymes and the food is room temperature... NEVER heat (on the stove or microwave) anything with the enzymes in it... it will destroy the enzymes.... and cold will inactivate it. Most dogs do better when the food is allowed to incubate- - it gives the enzymes more food to cover because it becomes softened and it helps avoid mouth sores. THere are lots more little tricks and tips.... but i don't want to overwhelm you.... please feel free to ask any questions you may have and feel free to post pictures.... we would LOVE to see pictures of Bella, one very lucky girl that you opened your heart and your home to. | |
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-- Olesia, owned by Izzy-45lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 7 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.
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Member Posts: 727 |
Welcome to the forum and sorry you have to be here. You'll get all the help and advice you need. Good luck. xox | |
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-- Wallace rescue GSD. Currently feeding James Wellbeloved Turkey and Vegetable Cereal Free and some Butcher's Tripe. Four teaspoons Pancrex Granules and 2 Lypex capsules per meal. (Will go back to raw pig pancreas soon.) Three meals a day 3 times per week, 2 meals a day the other 4 days otherwise he stops eating. Tylan 1/8 teaspoon twice a day (this is half the recommended dose for his weight but the recommended dose made his poos soft!) Synbiotic D-C (probiotic and prebiotic) capsule once a day. Monthly B12 injection.
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Member Posts: 82 |
Welcome Kris and Bella from Australia. This is a great place for loads of helpful info in treating EPI. I'm still new here and it looks like you have been given loads of helpful advice Cheers, Heidi & Indi | |
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-- Mum to Indi- 3 y.o GSD Dx with EPI on 1/4/11starting weight 26.5kg currently weighs 32kgs - we have made it to goal weight!!! Currently on 1 1/2 cups Canidae salmon 3 times a day with 1 creon 25,000. Also getting acidophilis daily. Indi lives in SA Australia Mum also to Sampson, Meg, Fanta and Junior- all GSDs a happy full house RIP Neve- taken to early! Miss you always
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Member Posts: 13 |
Wow I am so blessed to have all of you helping us on this journey. Bella seems to be doing ok with both the enzymes and the tylan mixed in her food. She still seems like she is starving to death. I feed her once at 6am 2.5 cups of food and then agan at 6pm the same. I feel like she needs something in the middle of the day. Maybe a cup or so? Does anyone know if this will become a problem? I do feel like she is actually holding in some nutrients and gaining a little bit. It has only been 2 full days and maybe I am just hoping real bad. I do notice a ton of energy from her. Wow....a big change. Thanks to all for your reply's again...we are blessed to have found ya'll. I will be contacting enzyme diane shortly. Her 12 oz bottle of the enzyme was 200.00. for a couple week supply. She is no doubt worth it....i put off adopting another gsd(her brother) until i can get her all situated. Thanks to all...please keep your suggestions coming...i am new to this. If anyone needs help with CDRM in German Shepherd I am the women....I can help... | |
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Member Posts: 992 |
Hi Kris, Sounds like there's been some positive change already...Yay! Increased energy is a good sign. The general rule of thumb when first diagnosed and starting treatment is to feed 150% of the usual amount of food to help them gain back the weight. They literally are starving from the inability to digest and absorb nutrients from the food they've been eating. Our EPI girl Cedar's ideal weight is about 70 lbs and when she was diagnosed, she was 60 lbs. We were feeding her 2 cups of kibble + 1/2 cup of add ins 3 x daily at the beginning and when she gained back her weight, we just tapered and then dropped the in between meal and then tapered back the kibble amount in the others. She's now stable and get 1 1/2 cups of kibble with about 1/3 to 1/2 cup of add ins twice daily. I think it's a good idea to add a third meal in at this stage but I'm not sure how much per feeding because GSDs are generally bigger than Cedar is and I think routinely would weigh and eat more...not sure about this but someone with a GSD will jump in I'm sure. I know it sounds gross, but if you're able to post some poop pics it's really helpful. We walked a bit of a similar path I think. I'm so sorry that you lost Jerry Lee. We lost our Toby just 2 weeks before Cedar was diagnosed. It was hard to be so afraid for Cedar while grief for Toby was still so fresh. I have to say though that it made me determined not to lose her too and the folks here walked us through every jittery, frightened step. I'm sure that Bella will be well again soon! | |
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- Barb -
Mom to Cedar, diagnosed with EPI Nov 1, 2010, TLI 1.2, April 2011 B12 310 (150-700), Folate 31 (7-39); Dec 2011 B12 349 (150-700), Folate 18 (7-39); now on B12 injections weekly; 1 3/4 tsp pancreatin 8X/meal, 1 1/4 c Evo Red Meat Grain free + 1/2 c add ins (pork, salmon, sardines, haddock, egg, pumpkin are the usual), 1/3 c water, incubated x 30 minutes; 2 meals/day; current weight 69.9 lbs. Also has Pannus; treated with tacrolimus ointment 2 x daily each eye and gets 100 ug Vit E daily for immature cataracts. Also Mom to pupkids Bree and Griffin, and catkids Abby, Diamond and Max...and skinkid Ayden
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Who is completely spoiled rotten, loves kids, and will be going into therapy dog training as soon as I can afford it.
You have gotten tons of great info - I scanned real quickly - don't know if anyone said to feed 150% of the normal amount of food right now. Since she has lost so much weight you feed them this amount to "bulk" them up and once they start leaving food behind that a pretty good sign you can start cutting back. Normally at this stage the pups are starved because their bodies have been in starvation mode from not getting the nutrients.You must login to post.
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