EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

TO ALL WHO JOIN THIS FORUM, IF YOU HAVE TIME, PLEASE READ THIS ACTUAL THREAD....AS MANY OF US ASKED THIS SAME QUESTION "IS PUTTING MY DOG DOWN THE RIGHT THING TO DO?" ............... BUT THEN WITH A LITTLE GUIDANCE FINDING THE RIGHT BALANCE TO TREATING EPI.....SO MANY OF US WATCHED OUR VERY SICK DOGS TURN AROUND, GET BETTER AND GO ON TO LIVE  HEALTHY, HAPPY LIVES!
~EPI4DOGS

My mixed breed dog has been diagnosed with epi she is failing rapidly she looks so gaunt. its heart breaking .I have been feeding her several meals a day and she has been stealing food from the other animals (we have a small hobbie farm) its hard to keep her on her diet my kids are always giving in to her begging ,she works them good .what I need to know is am I just prolonging her suffering for my own selfish reasons or is it time to put her down so she is no longer suffering ,she just isnt getting any better .And make no mistake I love my dog ,more then my kids some days,but it kills me to see her starving because shes not digesting her food . Today is a day when I am questioning my reasons for holding on ,is it for her or for me ?

Your question is heart-breaking and one we all have to face at one time or another.  We often know when it is the right time or sometimes our furbabies seem to let us know.  I have many questions that may help us help you as well as guide you in making the best decision for Addie and your family.  Dogs with epi can live a very long, full life but it requires treating the condition and in the beginning it seems difficult, but down the road it becomes "routine".  However the whole family has to agree to follow the guidelines. Dogs with epi can only eat food that has enzymes added to them; these enzymes digest the food so when the dog eats the food it receives the needed nutrition.  Most epi dogs need to be fed grain-free food:  no rice, corn, etc.  There are many good grain free kibble and canned food and some people feed raw or cooked food (or a combination).  No treats that are not treated with enzymes.  Your dog has been starving and will continue to beg until it is being fed the correct food with the enzymes.  No matter how much food you give in a day, if it does not have the enzymes, then it will still "starve".  Many dogs were at "death's door", extremely thin and are now members of the chunky monkey club (overweight) with vet's asking we put our dogs on a diet (I have one of them).  I don't know how old your children are, but if they can understand that by feeding "treats" and table food that does not have the enzymes they are making her sick they may stop doing it.  She will also stop begging when (a) she is getting proper nutrition) and (b) she gets no reward for her begging.  Let her children know her tummy hurts when she eats the wrong food and she doesn't know it is the food that is making her sick so she begs but they cannot feed her.

I am going to ask a lot of questions and make comments that as I said can help us all help you.

1.  How long ago was Addie diagnosed?  Do you know what her TLI, B12 (cobalamin) and folate scores were?  EPI dogs with low B12 will not improve without getting B12 shots.  Can be done at home and relatively inexpensive that way.  High folate can mean SIBO which is bacteria in her gut that needs antibiotics (usually 30 days) to wipe out.

2.  What kind of food are you feeding.  If there is ANY grain in the food, please switch foods.  There is  information on brands in the DIET section.  In the beginning we recommend feeding 150% of normal, divided into 3 or 4 meals a day.  No treats unless been treated with the enzymes and is best to not do any treats until "stable".

3.  What does her poop look like?  Yes, we are a strange bunch that fixate on our dog's poop.  But frequency, color, form (or lack of) tells us a LOT about how a dog is doing.

4.  What is Addie's current weight and what is your goal weight?  how long has she been losing/

5.  Also if you know what the mix of breeds are as well as her age we would love to know that too.

This is a very manageable disease, though sometimes dogs were diagnosed "too late" or have other medical problems and need to cross to the Rainbow Bridge...but a large precentage of pups do really well.  There can be a lot of frustrations and a few setbacks in the beginning, but it is very doable.  We have two dos with epi (half siblings) and if you saw them you would NOT think anything is wrong (well, Taiko's hips, but that is another story).  Please feel free to ask questions, vent, worry, etc., we have all been there.  If you decide to move forward there is a log in the downloads section that you may find helpful to keep track.  There are basic things we recommend but every dog is different and the log helps you figure out how your dog may be different from some others here....what works for them may not work the same for Addie.

No!!!!!!!!!!!! Not if it is treatable........ I was just told my dog hs EPI. I am doing research on it now..... It is fixable. The dog just needs the enzyme powder. If you can afford it you should treat the dog. If you can't and you can't get help with getting it then you have to do what is best for the dog. But in my opinion you should trry everything to help the dog before you thing about the end......... I know I will do what ever it takes to get my dog the enzymes. I heard that you can feed beef pancreas to the dog to help it. I am researching that. I will let you know whgat I find out. Good luck with your dog and sorry to hear that he got it..... It is a tuff thing to handle............

Hi and welcome to the forum.  Many of the dogs diagnosed with EPI have looked like they were at death's door (check out some of the before and after photos at the top menu).  But with the proper amount of enzymes and treatmet of SIBO and low B12 (if applicable), the dogs regain all the weight they lost and them some. To start with, many feed a grain free diet and use 1 tsp of powdered pork pancreas enzymes per 1 cup of food.  Many here use enzymes from Enzymediane. They are much cheaper than the ones the vets sell and work like a dream! Vets sometimes don't understand that the amount of enzymes is determined on how much food is being fed. If enough enzymes are not used to predigest the food, the dog still cannot get enough nutrition absorbed. If SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth) is present (and in many cases it is) as well as the B12 being low, the dogs will still have difficulty gaining weight. When the balance of all 3 things is found, the dog will flourish and get the nutrition they need.

Did you also have the B12 (cobalamin) and Folate tested? If so, what were the numbers?  Tylosin or Metronidazole are the two antibiotic that are most used to treat SIBO, and B12 shots are given at certain intervals in order to help the dogs gain weight and properly absorb nutrients. Are you currently giving her enzymes in her food?

I know sometimes we feel selfish for keeping them around when they look like they are suffering.  But know that this is a VERY treatable condition. Once you figure out the combination for your dog, she will be back to her old self.  I see you are in Canada.  We have many members in Canada and hopefully they will chime in to let you know the kinds of food and such that are available to you.  You are in a great place to get the answers you need.  I couldn't have gotten my girl healthy again without their help!

Oops!  Guess we were all writing at the same time!

Couldn't put it better than Terry's Q&A so I'll say welcome and yup, it really is treatable in the majority of cases, overwhelming at first but with some time and patience (and training your children  very manageable.

And ask all the questions you need to, that why folks loiter around here, ready to help...

best

Craig 

Welcome from us too. I agree with what everyone has said here & Terry's answers to you are excellent. EPI is very treatable & these dogs, even when they are very skinny, can bounce back quickly, once the enzymes, B12, anti's kick in. Believe me, we have all been where you are right now, & things do get better. You have certainly come to the right place for help & support. People here are wonderful.

Again welcome. Pleased you have found us.

Hello and welcome from UKI

I went through every emotion known to man at the start

Terys question and answer post is brilliant and Olesia maybe we should put it or something very similar in  the downloads or somewhere else it would save a lot of typing if folk could answer each bit and maybe if you have time print it for your convention

anyway the vets at the start said Kara would not make it as she did not respond to anything but we persisted and did what the FORUM advised and although we will never have a chunky monkey we have a beautiful although difficult GSD but we are working on that too

you really need to stop the children giving treats or anything else maybe get them involved in her rehabilitation it will give them some purpose to help her

sadly a lot of folk do put these dogs to sleep for whatever reason but it is manageable

Please at least try to give it a whirl

you have our support

here is my girl enjoying life after a long sometimes stressful rollercoaster

jean

Hi....  I'm really sorry you are here.  I completely understand exactly how you feel.  We watched our little dog become terribly ill in such a short time, and yes, she was wasting away.  I was very fortunate in that I was able to tell every time I looked at her, that she was still fighting, and fighting very hard, to stay alive.  As Terry said so very well, this disease is very much treatable, and dogs once stable live perfectly normal lives.  My pup is one of the "chunky monkies" that Terry speaks of now.  In one year, she has become a completely new dog.  I can only speak of my experience, as do all the other members here.  It is preached that each dog is different, but the basic principles still apply.  Whereas each dog is different, each situation is just as different, and you must be the voice for your dog.  In doing so you must always do what you feel is right for your dog.  We will be here to help you in any and every way, but also know we will not judge you.  The dogs are easily trained to become used to their routine of this condition, but as some have learned with children and spouses, the humans are so much harder to train!!!!  We will be here to help....

Just wanted to add another hello, welcome, and sorry you have to be here!  I urge you to give us more details by answering Terri's questions.  The good folks here have lots of experience and can really help guide you in the right direction, but it helps a lot to have as much information as possible.  And, for both you and Yoe, look into getting enzymes from Enzyme Diane http://www.enzymediane.com/.  They are MUCH more affordable than getting them from the vet, and they work just the same.  A lot of people on the forum get their enzymes from her, including me. 

Don't! At least not until you've given the advice the wonderful on this forum will give you, a chance. I'm from India, and not one person I knew here had ever heard of EPI.  EPI4dogs is the place for you to be. I was giving the wrong food, the wrong enzymes and they walked with me step by step and our Mahi is now slowly on the road to recovery. She's put on 3 kgs in 2 months!

You can do it too!  I know it's totally overwhelming at first, but once you get the hang of it and find the right balance of diet and enzymes and B12, you'll find that it's more just a question of managing it. And no treats!

Devika

Hello and welcome to the forum, although sorry you need to be here.  My Tara was dx'd 7 years ago with EPI.  While I knew how to treat it, she wouldn't eat and was under 50 pounds.  How much under I do not know because we quit weighing her as it was too depressing.  Hubby and I had many, many tearful conversations about putting her down as we didn't know what to do and she was failing rapidly. Her eyes, however, never gave up and she wanted to fight, so we fought and fought hard.  All I can say now is how happy that we kept fighting, because today, she is 85 pounds and flirts with the occasional diet!!!

Terri asked you all the right questions and good suggestions about no treats and talking with the kids and telling the importantance in that rule. Please give us more information and in turn, we can help you.

You absolutely do not have to put the dog to sleep.   It will take work on your part and everyone's part who is in the dogs life.   EVERYONE needs to understand what her requirements are and to stick to it - otherwise she will slowly die.   I understand how the kids want to give a treat - but they need to know the implications - they are making the dog sick.   Right now it sounds like your dog is in the "starvation" phase of EPI and eating everything she can get her mouth on.   Everything that goes into her mouth must be treated with enzymes or it will go right through her body and she will not stabilize.   As others have mentioned you also need to address B2 and SIBO if they are present.  You need to address all 4 things at once - food, enzymes, B12 and SIBO - otherwise you will not get a grip on EPI.   Grain free food is recommended.

EPI is very manageable if ALL are on the same page and recognize it is a disease that needs to be treated.   I really pray your whole family understands this and your beautiful pup can live many good years.    It does take patience, it does take work and it does take everyone in the dogs life being on the same page.    I really hope things work out for her and for your whole family...

Hello, I just want you to know that with the right treatment, your pup CAN recover.  My baby, Vito, was 58lbs when I adopted him, he was nothing but bones.  Now he's up to 90lbs, most of which he gained in the last 2 months!  Don't lose hope, get some enzymes, they don't cost too much if you order from enzymediane.  I'm on a tight budget myself, so I would know.

To give you a little encouragment, here's my pup before and after treatment.

Will every dog do as well as Vito did?  No.  But it's possible.  If you really do think your pup can't be brought back, then we all understand, and we've all been there to help each other through the pain.  But don't think of EPI as an automatic death sentence, it can be treated, and pups can and have recovered.  Good luck, whichever decision you make.

EPI isn't difficult once you find the formula for your dog. Everyone wanted to put Wallace down but I adopted him. He's had a set back unrelated to EPI so he's lost some of the weight I got on him but it's going back on.

Educate the whole family, I have 4 kids and they understand Wallace is different, so no treats.

Wallace is happy and loves life.

xox

Hello, I am sorry you are having difficulties with your beloved pup, but as everyone else has said, EPI is very manageable once you get things balanced.   Kolby was only one year old when he was diagnosed and  by the time we got the enzymes and began treatment he weighed about 55 pounds and looked terrible.   A little more than a year later  he  now weighs 80 pounds and looks terrific. 

In response to your question, I would say you have many options before you have to answer that question.  It sounds like you have not started enzyme treatment with food, B12 supplements, or antibiotics and these are necessary to guide your dog back to good health.  But it is totally doable.   The many people on this forum will attest to the fact that we have all been where you are now  and many, many of us are enjoying our EPI dogs in good health! 

We would love to help you help your dog to regain his health.  There are many kowlegeable and generous people here who are more than willing to give you the suggestions and answers you need.  It is a bit of a roller coaster ride in the beginning, but once you find the balance of food, enzymes, antibiotics and B12, your dog can lead a normal life. 

If you answer Terry's questions and some of the others that have been posted, we can then help you to begin this process.

Hope to hear from you.

Barb

Hello and welcome

I too live in Nova Scotia. I hope you can give us a bit more info. It is so hard at first and it is a time consuming thing, I have found a feed place where i can buy grain free foods and both work well for my girl Acana grasslands and canadiae  they are both the grain free brands, my vet is great and i feel works with me. If you want to email me or contact me let me know, sometimes just having someone to talk to helps. What part of Nova Scotia do you live? Hope you can get a clear and calm head and make the decision that is right for you.

Wanda

DEAR GOD please don't put that dog down.  Really, he can be ok. Don't make any decisions like that to quickly, especially cause there are other options, there are crazy people out there that will actually adopt an EPI dog, or a dog with special needs just cause that is what they do.  There ARE PLenty of them on this forum.  Some find the right mix and bam, not too many bumps along the road. Others go through much harder times.  Take a look at the before and afters tab.  I remember how little Bronson was when his mom joined the forum and he is fat now, same with Vito.  Kain, well, he is small, BUT he is back to his original weight. I faced the facts, he will never be part of the chunky monkey club, BUT, he is a happy and healthy 66-68 lbs. and that is much better than 48!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Please ask as many questions so we can all help you to help your dog.  This is not a life sentence.  Many on here say that they sometimes forget they have an EPI dog. And yes.... educate, great point.  My 3 year old twins understand that "Kain will get sick if you feed him". They NEVER have, since January because they do not want their dog to be sick or go to the doctor.  Since kain has been doing better, and stable, we in the past month introduced a maybe once a week limited ingredient, grain free treat. They know when I give it to them to give to him, that is ok.  Please just try to collect yourself and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel!!!

Hello and Welcome to the Forum

So many of us have walked in your shoes, wondering if were doing the right thing.  I pulled Claire from a county shelter in order to foster her for a rat terrier rescue.  She was skin and bones, no fat, no muscle, she looked like death.  I just figured she'd been on her own for too long and needed some groceries.  In the first two days we had her, she was diagnosed with diabetes and EPI, plus the only thing the shelter gave her was kennel cough and she had nothing to fight it off with. 

I had never heard of EPI, and had no experience with diabetes, but what I did have was a little dog who clearly wanted to get better.  She is quickly approaching her 2nd year of living with me and trust me, in the beginning I never thought that would happen. This forum is the best place for you to be and I mean that with all my heart.  The knowledge among this group is amazing, but even more than that, the love and support they provide will help get you through. 

If your in a financial position to treat your dog, then please give her a chance to turn this around. It's a decision I doubt you'll ever regret.

Good Luck...........

Sue and Claire

Sue, I'd love to see some recent photos of Claire, might be a good inspiration for some of the newer members to see.