EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Hiya, I'm new to the forum, have only just registered, but Google sent me here after I was researching the best pancreatic enzyme to use.

My insurance has run out for my GSD now, so I'm trying to find the best value powder for her EPI.

As far as I can see, there's 3 main types, and their active ingredients (BP units per gram) are as follows:

...................................Protease..........Lipase...........Amylaze

Pancrex Vet Powder..........1,400.............25,000...........30,000

"Pancreatic Enzyme"..........1,000............15,000............12,000

Panzym...........................2,100............38,000............32,000

Now I was getting "Pancreatic Enzyme" from my vet, as I think it replaced Pancrex, but as "Pancreatic Enzyme" and Panzym seem to be a similar price, it seems that I would be lots better off with the Panzym as it's twice as strong?

From a quick look around, it seems I can get Panzym for around £46 online. (I was paying £65 at the vets for Pancreatic Enzyme, but luckily insurance was reimbursing me).

However, I was also having a look at the human Pancreatin supplements as they seem much cheaper, but it seems that the proportions of the active ingredients might be wrong for a dog?

I'd be grateful for any advice, especially if there's anyone else here from the UK!

Many thanks

I use lypex capsules so cant really comment we are trying to get a distributor to supply at keen prices so can you let me know how much you use per month so that we can include you as i am trying to obtain best costs..Here is the Lypex ingredients.

Lipase 30,000 Ph. Eur. U

Amylase 18,750 Ph. Eur. U

Protease 1200 Ph. Eur. U

Lipase 30,000 Ph. Eur. U

Amylase 18,750 Ph. Eur. U

Protease 1200 Ph. Eur. U

have you thought about giving raw panceas instead if your dog has stabalised it might be woth giving this ago as it works out lot cheaper.

Thanks for the figures.

I had considered using raw pancreas but there's no slaughterhouses near to me, plus I'm veggie so the thought of that doesn't appeal to me muchly

Ok I've just done a few calculations, and each capsule of Lipex contains slightly less active ingredients than 1g of Panzym.

For ease of comparison, if we say that a capsule of Lipex is comparable to 1g of Panzym, then 255g of Panzym for £47 works out at ~18.5p/gm.  Which means that a bottle of 60 Lipex would have to cost in the region of £11 to make it a comparable price to the Panzym, yet a bottle seems to retail around £40-50.

I think that's right anyway, lol!

Lucy at September 12, 2011 at 10:26 AM

Thanks for the figures.

I had considered using raw pancreas but there's no slaughterhouses near to me, plus I'm veggie so the thought of that doesn't appeal to me muchly

have you read the enzyme tab at the top of the forum page this telles you about creon and there is a link for how to use.

I asked my pharmacist about Creon this morning and he said that it was human prescription only in the UK so there's no way I'd be able to get hold of it.  Will read the Enzyme page now - there's tons of info on here, it's taking a while to get through it!! 

HI Lucy....a very warm welcome to you!

... regarding what is the best enzyme to use....research and actual testimony suggests that powdered enzymes are the best to use... HOWEVER... that being said... not everyone has access (because of where they live) to appropriate enzymes.....and consequently many have to use other forms of pancreatic enzymes....in short... we work with what we have access to

NOW.... in response to your specific question......as long as the enzyme product you are using has sufficient proportions of enzymes in it to treat an EPI dog.... then use what works best for your individual EPI dog....

HOW TO DO THIS?!

THe best way to approach this is... if you were using a powder that worked..... try to find another powder that has similar potencies (Lipase, Amylase and Protease).... always base you choice on the similarities of the Lipase enzyme potency first...then the Amylase and then Protease........ and try it for a few days... watch and take notes on how your dog responds.

Also.... BP units are measured differently from USP units... i noticed that you are comparing all BP units to BP units... this is good... don't ever  try to compare PCP units to USP units.......

Since you found  similar (potency) products in the same form (powder)... then shop around for the best price available to you... BUT... based on the actual Lipase potency of what you were using and what is available to you... then i personally would first try:

Pancrex Vet Powder..... it is always better to start with the more potency than you need cause you can reduce the amount you are giving if too much... but starting off with too little can invite SIBO.

Comparing enteric coated enzymes (capsules like CREON) potency to powdered enzymes is tricky because you are not comparing apples to apples....you almost have to be a mathematical wizard to work out the formula properly....and mathematical wizard i am not!!!! So......... i uploaded the actual comp from the company on the enzyme page in an effort to give folks an idea of what /how to use.  And even with the comp.... the dosage STILL depends on the individual dog.

Too much or too little enzymes can both give loose stools.....

Let us know when you start having fun :lol:....

Hope this helps a little...................................

People who cannot get the appropriate canine replacement enzymes will order CREON on-line....or in some countries, they do get it from the pharmacy.... and  yes, your pharmacist is correct.... it is a human drug....but in some places, this is all that is available so this is what is used

We've tried lots of different ones for Gem but have found she does best on Lypex.  One made her smell awful.  One didnt seem to help.  Lypex is very easy and you dont have to incubate it, just tip a capsule out onto the food.  It doesnt smell and we tell Gem its her salt and pepper   She doesnt even seem to notice the little grains on top of her food as she tucks in sharpish

Lucy ~ i hope this information was helpful

Karen~  HI!!!! So nice to hear from you .... how are Gemma and Izzy ??? Well i hope!

Thank you all very much for your help and advice.  Particularly epi4dogs for that very comprehensive explanation!

I can't seem to find any Pancrex powder to buy - although I find plenty of references to it on the internet, when you look deeper it seems to have been replaced by the lower strength "Pancreatic Enzyme" powder.

I've decided therefore to try the Panzym powder at approximately half the dose of her current powder, as it's twice the strength, and that should give me very similar active ingredients.

I'll start keeping a diary too - I need to do this anyway as Sasha's gone back to yellow cowpats over the last couple of weeks (which ties in with her new addiction to fuschia buds :roll:) so that needs sorting.

The Lypex does seem a possible option if the Panzym doesn't work, so I'll hold that in reserve.  Many thanks everyone, and I'll keep you updated!

Sasha with my Rottiex Max:

I've just been reading through the memorials page, and I'm so sad to see how many dogs have succumbed to this horrid condition.  It looks like we've been very lucky with Sasha - she's had the condition for over 6 years now, and it's always been manageable, so I guess it comes in different forms and we're one of the lucky ones.  I didn't realise how badly some others got it

Hugs and sympathy to those who have lost their friends.

Lucy at September 13, 2011 at 4:30 AM

I've just been reading through the memorials page, and I'm so sad to see how many dogs have succumbed to this horrid condition.  It looks like we've been very lucky with Sasha - she's had the condition for over 6 years now, and it's always been manageable, so I guess it comes in different forms and we're one of the lucky ones.  I didn't realise how badly some others got it

Hugs and sympathy to those who have lost their friends.

Lucy

So glad you found the info on this site proabaly wasnt around when your dog was diagnosed can you let me know how mush powder you wil be ordering monthly as we are trying to get some bulk orders off one comapny to keep the costs down for the forum members .

I'm guessing it will be in the region of one 255g tub every 2 months.

Lucy at September 13, 2011 at 9:53 AM

I'm guessing it will be in the region of one 255g tub every 2 months.

Hi Lucy

I have copied this to the supplier to see if he can find it for you

can't seem to find any Pancrex powder to buy - although I find plenty of references to it on the internet, when you look deeper it seems to have been replaced by the lower strength "Pancreatic Enzyme" powder

Hi Lucy,

Changing enzymes is sometimes like all other things... not completely standard... for instance I used Tryplase capsules for a year or more with Razzy, then I tried Lypex.

Now the vet said Lypex was twice the strength of Tryplace (which it was) but because it was different being enteric coated it worked out that the ratio wasn't exactly the same.

Tryplace was incubated for 45 mins for Razzy... but Lypex was sprinkled on and digested inside her gut.... the result was 8oz of kibble well soaked was 2 Tryplace... but Lypex was not one capsule to 8 ozs it was 1 1/2 capsules.

BUT this was for MY dog so it could be different for another dog... it is, however, a good thing to keep in mind when you are tweaking a new enzyme. NOTHING in EPI is standard, dog to dog... they all need their own tweaking.

Good luck hon.

Val

VAL~ Thanks for sharing that information for Lucy.... enzyme doses can be a wild card ....so it is very helpful to let everyone know to not give up or not think something is not working but to rather "try" different doses if having a problem and keep an EPI Journal.... it really REALLY helps!

Maddie Ann ~  thanks so much for checking into this for Lucy... that is really nice of you!

Lucy ~ keep us posted!

Thanks again to everyone for your help.  I posted my question on another UK forum too before I found this one, and they've recommended Lypex too, so I'll definitely hold that in reserve.

The Panzym turned up today, so I used some of that along with some of the old stuff (trying to change over gradually, but not much of the old stuff left!) and she looked a bit dubious, but did eat it all.

She's always been bad for eating faeces - her eyes light up if one of the others do a poo when she's out on a walk, but she did a cowpat earlier, then turned around and started lapping at it - absolutely vile!!  She always wears a muzzle when I put them out in the garden to do their business but not for walks.

Hey Lucy.... try adding a teaspoon of crushed pineapple to her food... this is what onw of our members told me to do and it worked... then others tried it and it worked for them too!!!!!  If poo eating is a "habit" this should deter her from eating her own poo.... of course it won't help if she eats the neighborhood dogs poo too .....

But of course the other reason for eating poo is that she is not absorbing nutrients... but  eating poo for that reason should go away once her body is replenished and she is getting the right amount of enymzes with every meal..... but then again... if it developes into a nasty habit that you are having trouble breaking her of... when she no longer has a reason to do this... try the pineapple 

Thanks for the pineapple suggestion - I just searched the forum for past posts on the subject and found it quite interesting!  Will definitely have to get a few tins of pineapple chunks! 

She's always done it, even when stable, hence the Baskerville muzzle every time she goes out!