EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency
managing EPI
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| Forum Home > General Discussion > First post here, plenty o problems! :) EPI or not EPI | ||
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Member Posts: 11 |
@ Addiemoose, don't apologize.
Ok, off the soapbox now, but that felt good and I needed to spout. I WISH it were as easy as that I was simply overfeeding. That'd sure be cool and easy to fix.
@ Star's Mom: No idea why the B12 test is such an issue, other than the requirements of freezing or cold-packing the sample. Apparently people just don't want to deal with that? I don't understand why not; I'm prepared to pay for the extra $$$ for that, so why not?
I did get an email response from a vet that they'd do the EPI AND B12 for $250. So there is someone willing to do that. Inflated price, perhaps, but if they submit it correctly, okay.
And you are very right, this could be many things other than EPI. From what I've found online, EPI and/or SIBO is the most likely and fits the symptoms best. However, I did not honestly pursue the EPI until my options ran out and I began to get really desperate and scared as he became so lean. He doesn't have many symptoms. He's had chronic soft poop that has been mustard in color and very smelly. That's it and that's all. No lethargy, no vomiting, no other corresponding issues other than in the past few weeks, he is starving. He whines and cries as I put his meal together.
Insanity is just around my next corner.
Part of me is tempted to go ahead with the Dr Google vet. At the very least, blow the 52 bucks on the consult. Bring my Excel printout of his entire vet history and lay it all out. If he says my solution is to switch to Science Diet, I will walk out without paying the bill. Sorry.. but that was our current vet's solution and I know quite well food is not the complete answer. This boy has gut issues of some kind and it is high time to figure out what they are.
<<Steps off soapbox>>
Thanks for letting me vent. As usual, I am totally open to all info and advice. | |
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Member Posts: 368 | Hi Rachelle, Please, don't turn the corner to insanity just yet.....hang in there! It is a hard call, which route as far as which vet to go with. I say go with your gut, as far as who seems the most willing to work WITH you as part of a team. You are obviously right that there is something going on that a food change will not fix, as youve gone that route already. At this point, some sort of further diagnostics need to be done. I say go in for a consult (with whatever vet you choose) but tell them you want the TLI/ B12 done as the first test and you will be willing to consider other things once those results are back. If it turns out to not be EPI, then at least you have ruled that out and can move on to other solutions. As far as not having many symptoms, that was my Star as well. She was fine up until the day that I shared some pizza with her. The next several days she had diarrhea, I chalked it up to too much pizza and a tummy ache. When the diarrhea didnt go away, I tried a bland diet of chicken and rice. The diarrhea got somewhat better but had that mustard color. She was losing weight, but is a really furry dog, so it was not real obvious until the day I could feel her backbone and I actually weighed her. She had dropped 15 pounds in a very short time and that's when we saw the vet. I was lucky, I had a very young but very on the ball vet who ordered the test and got the diagnosis right away. But other than the weight loss and mild diarrhea, we had no eating weird things, stealing food, no poop eating, no behavior changes, etc. Every dog is different, not all have every symptom. Unfortunately, other ailments can also have similar symptoms, so until you have testing done there is no way to know for sure. Keep us posted Lisa | |
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Member Posts: 2124 |
Hello I have just been reading this thread. I dont understand any vet refusing to do what the customer requests there is saying in this country the customer is always right if you are drawing blood does it matter how many vials they label for different tests . Anyway i am not going to rant on about it. B12 was Maddie problem low levels lack of weight gain. And has Becky has pointed out low B12 and Sibo can occur by themsleves without EPi so the B12 is to me really important. Ann
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-- ANN (UK)
Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now 5 DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2. B12 RETESTED 0N 21-05-2013 Value 902 after 15 months of daily piils Yipheeee Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs) Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/ Also omega3 and Vitamin E daily. Use Panzym 1/4 a tsp per 200 grams of food .Got SIBO under control after antibiotics ( stormormgyl) used synbotic by protexin. a pre-probotic
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Site Owner Posts: 10230 |
Hi Rachelle~ Just catching up on all the threads and was going to suggest exactly what Lisa recommended..... just tell whichever vet you feel you are most comfortable with.... that you want the TLI + (B12) Cobalamin blood tests done first....(print the TAMU assays instructions for these tests - -links on the B12 & TIL page here) to confirm or positively rule out EPI.... if not EPI then you are more than willing to do the other tests............. And don't worry too much.... (1) we are here for you 24/7 ... (2) many of us have been given the run-around in the beginning... but sooner or later, we DO find wonderful vets that work with us, and some even learn with us and go on to successfully treat other EPI dogs | |
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-- Olesia, owned by Izzy-45lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 7 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils. In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8 years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes and Low Thyroid. Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and is currently doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!
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Member Posts: 491 |
Hey Rachelle Just wanted to add my support and say that I'm sure you'll soon begin to see results and hopefully the vet will get on board with you quickly. Best of luck with everything! Devika | |
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-- Mahi, the Indian EPI dog, diagnosed at 10 months, now 3 years old. Was 60 (28 kgs) lbs, went down to 46 lbs (19 kgs), but now with YOUR help, on 29th July 2012 touched 66 lbs(30 kgs) Officially stable for six months as on 10th June 2013 and weighed in at 31 kgs. Fed 3 times a day - homecooked diet of 1 kg potatoes, 70 gms lentils, 150 gms tapioca, squash, beetroot, carrots mashed together, 2 boiled eggs, 500 ml yoghurt and 3 cups of Taste of The Wild Pacific Stream. 1 Salmon Omega 3 tablet given per day. 1 tablet of Creon 25K given 20 mins before every meal. B12 injections bi-weekly. Very, very active - knock on wood, and seems to have gone from a level 10 of "hungry" to maybe an 8. On 27th July 2011, officially downgraded "hungry" level to 7. On 29th July 2012, officially downgraded "hungry" level to 6!! On 10th June "hungry" level downgraded to five :-)
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Member Posts: 2062 |
Hi Rachelle, I know I'm late, but wanted to welcome you to the group. Now that my computer is back home, I'll be posting more often. Hope you get everything sorted out soon. | |
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-- Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLi 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving weekly B12 shots at home. Weight in July 2012: 75 lbs - the picture of health.
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Member Posts: 449 |
Rachelle I can truly appreciate your frustration 'I am sick and tired of people saying the problem could be I am overfeeding ACK!"---Not sure how many others must have told you that but I am sincerely sorry "You wish it was as easy as that I was simply overfeeding" --- I by no means meant to suggest that the feeding amount would 'fix' the problem. When first Dx with Epi it was actually advised here to feed up to 150% of daily allotment but in smaller more frequent meals as there system may not be able to digest too much at one time.At first she could only eat 1/2 then 3/4 now 1 cup at a time. I thought it might help your Bailey. But really I agree as Olesia & Lisa said you need to get a vet to listen to you with what you want As you said you know your dog best -from what goes in & comes out
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--Maezi is a female Australian cattle dog (blue Heeler) from BC Canada born may 11-2010 Dx with EPI july 27,2011 & Oxalate crystals june 2012.The story of her journey and struggles with EPI are featured on the EPI stories section above
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Administrator Posts: 2146 |
Hey Rachelle, don't discount instnity just yet - it has its merits in my book (and you get away with ANYTHING To answer an earlier question about plant enzymes - nope, they will never be strong enough for anything otehr than the mildest absorbtion conditions, certainly not for anything related to EPI. We come across this all the time in Oz as most vets seem to be EPI-unaware or they are taught so little about its efficacous treatment they accept the very iffy marketing around plant-based products. just a supplement, not a replacement. A plant-based enzyme it cannot (and does not) provide enough firepower to replace the role of the pancreas. Let us know how you go...
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Craig Lulu (aka Miss Lulupants) is a 5 year old 'Red Shepherd' (Australian Red Heeler x Long-hair GSD) who lives in Adelaide, South Australia. Diagnosed with EPI in April 2010. Currently on one Creon 25k per meal;
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Member Posts: 11 |
@ Star's Mom: That is the way I'm leaning; let's rule this EPI thing out first. I've been doing some research into other gastro issues and nothing "fits." But, then again, EPI didn't really "fit," either. I'm taking a little step back to get my head together, think about things more... what I want more than anything is a vet that'll brainstorm with me. I have all the records, I know everything I've tried and the results, etc and so on... just to find *that* vet...
@epi4dogs: Agreed. As stated above, I want to deal with the EPI aspect first, and then delve into whatever else if that confirms negative.
@Maezi and wanda: I owe you an apology! I was absolutely not directing my comments about overfeeding to you! Thank you for being so gracious in spite of thinking I might have been, though.
@Miss Lulupants: I will hope that it is nothing more than an absorption issue, since these supplements do obviously make a big difference -- but I'm definitely not satisfied to leave it at that. I feel like it is a band-aid at this point. I'll keep applying the band-aid until we find the real answer.
~~
To add insult to injury, the boys got into the dog food bags tonight. The food is kept in a cupboard that no dog has ever gotten into, but yet, they did. I was one room away and when it was silent for a whole 6 minutes, I thought Uh Oh -- and upon investigation, yup, they were chowing down. I have no idea how much exactly of which food each got, but Tucker got absolute diahrrea tonight and Bailey's poop was super soft and yucky. On top of that, apparently the boyfriend made some fried eggs and filled the pan with water afterwards and put the pan on the back burner to soak. Judging by tonight, Tucker apparently drank out of that pan, because he is farting horrible egg smells. That'll teach me to go do my rare Friday night work-shift and leave the boyfriend in charge.
So tonight they're both hungry, but I cut their food dramatically over the bad stools & not knowing how much food they actually got into and the eggs ... Can anyone recommend a safe filler type of thing to give a dog when you just can't give them kibble? | |
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Member Posts: 528 |
Oh Dear! I hope they didn't get into too much extra food. It's amazing what these critters can accomplish in just a short time. Rosina is the queen of sneaking around and getting into stuff she isn't supposed to. I can't count the number of times I've caught her slinking off with something she has stolen. The most terrifying was the dark chocolate espresso Hershey kisses. I'm lucky we I caught it right after and made her throw up. Not a single problem. But this was before EPI. She has never touched anything that smells like chocolate and coffee. As for the filler, I usually add canned "no salt added" green beans chopped up real small into her food when she's been on steroids for her allergy and has an unsatiable appetite. They don't have many calories and seem to satisfy her a little better. | |
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-- Pamela and Rosina; 9 yr old LH Chihuahua Mix; dx'd 10/26/10; Currently 2.5 lbs overweight at 22.5 lbs. Free fed in AM and PM on 3/8 cup Wellness Core Chicken, Turkey Liver, and Chicken Liver Dry and 2 tbsp Wellness Core Chicken, Turkey Liver, and Chicken Liver canned, 1 tsp pumpkin (sometimes add 2 tbsp greenbeans when she needs more food because of increased appetite from the Temaril) and 1/2 tsp Diane's 8X granulated enzymes; 1 tbsp Wellness 95% Chicken or Turkey and 1/16 tsp 8X enzymes incubated and mixed with 1/16 tsp Tylan in the AM. Taking Temaril occasionally for allergies and Metacam 1X most days for leg pain.
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Member Posts: 2868 |
Hi Rachelle, I am going to defend Dr. Google a bit. There so much info on the internet, some is great and some is crap. I bet a lot of vets have clients come in that have already diagnosed their dog because they read it on the internet and many times it has to drive the vets nuts. According to a national pet insurance company that put out a top 10 list of why pets are brought to vets...number 4 and number 5. 4. Stomach upsets 5. Intestinal inflammation/diarrhea It could be so many things. So feel him out first, go over all you have tried, see if he will listen to you, if not find one that will. As far as your question on why they offer the TLI and B12/folate together since it has to be shipped differently...it saves you money but you do not have to do it together, it’s an option, you do have to specify you want both tests. If you choose to bundle it than you don’t do the blood draw on a Friday. I only do the B12/folate test, I have it done no later than a Wednesday, arrives Thursday and I have always had my results back on Friday. My vet emails me a copy of the results when she receives it. You might not get the results back as soon as I do as your vet might not have the time to go over them the same day and he might want to set up an appointment with you to go over the results. I also give Ted green beans as Pamela suggested to fill him up with as little calories as possible but it is in addition to his full amount of kibble.
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-- Kathy and Ted 10 yr old GSD rescue ~ gained 39 lbs
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Member Posts: 2120 |
They have four vets in the office and it is just the one I don't care for, that was rather snooty, so I pray I don't end up dealing with her. Any of the other three would be really open, I think. ********************************** We have three vets working in our practice and I TELL them which one I want to see and they fit me in at the next open appointment.... can you not do that? Val | |
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-- Razzy, GSD. EPI for 4 1/2 years... sadly lost to cancer 30th July 2011 aged 9 1/2 years.
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Member Posts: 11 |
As it turned out, they both got diahrrea after the food stealing incident.
Except it was their birthday yesterday, so they did get a little "cake" each.
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj391/mselleebay/TuckerFirstBirthday.jpg (I am obviously incapable of posting a pic in the thread. I am clicking the little computer screen above, but nothing comes up for me to input the URL. ? Sorry. Bailey is on the left. :))
Kathy & Teddy -- I know this is also right. I'm sure it gets very tiring to hear owners pre-diagnosing their dogs. In hindsight, after he said that, he sort of backed off a bit -- a small change in his voice -- maybe he was just having a bad day. I've spent $52 on far less important things. Their office is open late hours, so I'm probably going to try this. I tell you, I'm just torn and right now we are stable, so I'm thinking and continuing to gather info. Worst case scenario, I'm out $52. I figure if I don't like his attitude, his suggestions, etc, then I don't have to take them. A blood panel wouldn't be a bad idea. I really am open to almost anything. You know, bottom line, I just want to be *listened to*. I want to be spoken to as though I am a diligent, caring, informed dog owner. I do not want to hear that I need to simply try their prescription diet foods. That will upset me and worry me, because I have finally found a stable place and I'm very worried about mucking with that. It really is pretty unlikely I'd be willing to attempt a food change at this point. That is not about me being stubborn; it's about my fear the soft poop and the swollen anus, full anal glands, etc will come back.
Val -- No, you can't request any certain vet. I did inquire about this at one time, wanting to avoid the one doc. I didn't say I wanted to avoid anyone, I made a bit of fanfare saying how much I liked one other doc... but no. Just not how they work there.
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Member Posts: 2780 |
Happy Birthday Glad to hear you have him stable at the moment... all paws crossed that continues! | |
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-- ~Becky~
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Member Posts: 1665 |
Happy Birthday !!!! Cute little cakes.....Hang in there.....:) . | |
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-- Dar and Kodi, From Washington state Kodi (GSD female) , born August 19, 2010 , was diagnosed July 15, 2011 at 11 months .Lowest weight, 47 lbs, weight as of 4/27/2013 62.9 lbs. Our goal for her at this time is now 65 lbs. !!! And she made it!! . TLI .07 , Folate 9.4 , Cobalmin 536 . Kodi is on Great Life grain and potato free Buffalo,1 & 1/2 cups kibble with added canned or home cooked bison 3 times a day with 2 teaspoons of enzymes from Diane. (Also some home cooked meals)1 Trinfac-B capsule once a day. Also 1/8 t. of ground coriander, 1/16 t. of ground fennel seed and cinnamon per meal (for stomach acid and burps). Having acupunture with a holistic vet for food and enviromental allergies, doing accupressure points and taking 1000 mg.Super Quercetin daily for allergies.
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Member Posts: 449 |
Happy Birthday wanda and maezi | |
--Maezi is a female Australian cattle dog (blue Heeler) from BC Canada born may 11-2010 Dx with EPI july 27,2011 & Oxalate crystals june 2012.The story of her journey and struggles with EPI are featured on the EPI stories section above
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Member Posts: 56 |
Hi Rachelle - I know I'm a bit late, but I wanted to welcome you to the forum!! Your pups are so gorgeous! Everyone's already given you great advice, but I wanted to commiserate with you on your vet issues!
The vet who originally diagnosed Pepper was verrrryyy hesitant to listen to anything we had to say and flat-out refused to sit down and chat with us after she was diagnosed. We had a million questions (I thank God every single day for this forum, I don't know where we'd be without it!!) and he told us to just read the label on her enzyme bottle. The original treatment he put Pepper on was completely and utterly wrong (again, thank goodness for this forum); and when we tried to discuss it with him, he was super condescending and said something to the effect of "Oh, well I guess you don't need me since you have Google." *eyeroll* So you are not alone!! I remember feeling the same way you do, just wanted to be listened to and have the vet be willing to research and actually talk to me. I ended up having to switch vets, but hopefully yours will work with you. With this disease, I think a good vet makes all the difference.
All that said, it sounds like you are on the right track and I'm glad you're holding your ground on switching up the food again. Also, your little birthday cakes are adorable and the egg fart story had me cracking up, I can just picture it/smell it. LOL!
Anyhow, long post short, welcome to the forum!! | |
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-- -Laura (and sometimes Boy aka Dude aka Boyfriend) Human Mom to Pepper, a 1 year-old GSD/Husky mix. Diagnosed with EPI on 2/13/12. Weight at EPI Diagnosis: 38lbs Current Weight: 56lbs (A CHUNKY MONKEY!! YAY!!!) Goal Weight: 55lbs
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I am sharing your frustration. That was a hurtful thing to hear, this Dr Google thing! I'm not a vet and I'm absolutely not trying to be a know it all of any kind! I mean, I've been scooping nasty mustard stinky pudding poo since last July. My frustration level is at an all time high! The anal expressions, the foods I've researched and purchased, the hours upon hours of boiling chicken and rice, the internet research, the early morning flashlight-under-his-butt-to-check-out-his-poo.......... I'M UPSET. I'm the one who works with this every day, I'm the one taking him to every appt, the one giving every medication... I know this dog's bowels better than I know my own anymore. I know every single thing that goes in and every single thing that goes out!!!!!!! So why would I be treated like I'm an idiot? And while I'm on MY soapbox here, I am so sick and tired of people saying the problem could be I am overfeeding. ACK! This dog has *always* had measured food, and always below the recommendations on the bag. Now granted, it could be our very recent soft poop *could* be due to me upping the kibble without upping the supplements, as I did get a very nice poo tonight after cutting the kibble back, but the dog has *not* been overfed. He is so very lean. Not technically underweight at this time, but a pound or two of lost weight could make him so. He's close. 
When your baby is sick it is heartbreaking. I really just wanted to offer some support and share some of what worked/helped my Maezi. We had a lot of ups and downs in our journey.
if I added to your frustration about the amount of food. It was something that worked for my Maezi - when I tried to feed her more than small amount she would eat grass - vomit - poo 3-4 times in short time with mixed results as you described bailey doing. 
Hopefully he will agree and give the Tli/B12 test first at your request to confirm or rule out EPI then go from there. Again good luck. 
Lulu is super-smart, a bit plump and very pretty (everybody says so - including her!).
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