EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency
managing EPI
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Site Owner Posts: 10067 |
Hi everyone.... i am starting this thread for Polly from California ... She has a Great Dane, Luke, that might have EPI. "Hi Everyone. I have been feeding a raw, meaty bones diet for about 7 mts now. I have 2 Great Danes, 1 GSD, and 2 mixed breeds. I read everywhere that all the bones are not a good idea for EPI dogs????? I cannot find a complete scientific explanation why not??? All my other dogs are doing fine with Dr. Lonsdale's recommendation of 2% body weight. He saye "no" to the meat - only feeding. I am going to up his feed to 4% as per some of the answers on this discussion, and there are no runny poops and no smell since the raw food change. BUT he is huge, 38" at the shoulder, and was only 125# when I started them on raw, now is a slight 117#. Has anyone whom feeds raw noticed if their dog's poop is runny and smelly even thou feeding raw??? But the bone question is what concerns me. He eats whole chicken, with the extraneous fat cut off, and turkey necks. I am going to start him on enzymes as per Olesia's suggestion, and have his blood diagnosed for enzymes and B 12. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks" | |
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-- Olesia, owned by Izzy-45lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 7 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.
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Member Posts: 1316 |
Welcome Polly and Luke. I do not feed raw so I cannot answer questions regarding raw feeding...but there are a number of people here that do and I am sure they will soon chime in. I think getting the combined blood test of cTLI, cobalamin and folate done in the near future will give you information that can help you move forward. What is your goal weight? Is 125# what you are aiming for or should he weigh more? How is his appetite generally? If his appetite is low he may have low B12. How old is he? I am sure Olesia reviewed this, but best to have the tests done on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday and food fast (water is ok) for 12 hours. Once you have the results please post the results. | |
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-- Terry Mom of two EPI Shiloh Shepherds: Pharaoh born Nov. 2007 and dx with epi December 2009. Pharaoh weighed 62.4 lbs. (15 lb. weight loss) when diagnosed in 12/2009. Weight 10/31/11 his weight was 76.6. 85lbs on 9/22/12. Received six weeks of B12 shots Jan-Feb 2010 but his B12 on 8/10/2010 was only 232. So started weekly shots at home, which we continue to give. His older half sister is Taiko born Sept. 2006 and was dx with epi June 2010. Since she has severe bilateral hip dysplasia she had always been on the thin side. Taiko's weight was 70.7 lbs. in June 2010 (time of diagnosis; about a 10 lb. weight loss. Weight on 10/31/11 was 80.4 and on 9/22/12 was 82.4 lbs. B12 was 211 in June 2010 so started six weeks of shots and was only 293 on 8/10/10. She receive B12 shots weekly at home. Both are fed twice a day and we use either Costco grain free brand or Merrick BG brand:2 1/2 cups kibble in the morning and 4 oz cooked meat (usually steak) with 4 crushed tablets and in the evening 2 cups kibble with 4 oz cooked meat with 4 crushed tablets.
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Administrator Posts: 2146 |
G'day Polly, We supplement Lulu's diet with raw meaty bones specifically beef spine or neck depending on the description where you buy them. Actually they're mainly labelled 'soup bones' when used for making ahearty broth and can be a bit scare in summer at least in our neck of the woods but with the cooler weather coming on they become a regular part of or Lulu's diet . I took a picture a while back…
We give one to her with an evening meal which in our case is grain free kibble. Lulu whips it off the top, finishes the kibble and settles down to the bone. They're not enormous so she knocks the meaty content off while the enzymes are still active. Oh and they're really cheap Bones are also important for oral hygiene and these ones are less industrial than say a marrow bone and contain less fat although some fat is important to retain I think especially for an EPIer.
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Craig Lulu (aka Miss Lulupants) is a 5 year old 'Red Shepherd' (Australian Red Heeler x Long-hair GSD) who lives in Adelaide, South Australia. Diagnosed with EPI in April 2010. Currently on one Creon 25k per meal;
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Site Owner Posts: 10067 |
Hi Polly... i too do what Craig does with the raw meaty bones,,,,and again, like Craig, i waited until Izzy was stable. I give the raw meaty bones with 20minutes or so near an "enzymed" meal. The bones i give are also soup shank bones (Izzy is holding one in her mouth in my profile picture). Once she gnaws all the meat off.... she has a nice clean bone to clean her teeth on for years and years. As to why EPI dogs cannot digest as much bone as a normal dog even with replacement enzymes.... i do not know the scientific reasoning.....for example, like fiber, even with enzymes aren't digested well because it decreases the effacy of the enzymes by approx 50%, where as fat actually increases the effacy of the enzymes. But the "why" for bone... i have no idea. If someone else knows the actual reason why, hopefully they will chime in.....now i am curious too | |
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-- Olesia, owned by Izzy-45lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 7 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.
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Member Posts: 1781 |
Hi Polly. I don't think there is scientific evidence, just from trial and error of what EPI owners have found. Some cannot tolerate any bone, others can tolerate more. People have found that even the premades didn't work as well until they added deboned protein or veggies to the mix to cut down on the bone ratio. As to the fat, Hondo does not tolerate much, I have to skin and trim the fat in order for him to do well. Every dog is different and this is from years of experience, not scientific evidence as far as I know. It is not uncommon to lose weight in the beginning of RAW. | |
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Member Posts: 1649 |
I don't feed raw, so I can't really add anything, but I did want to say Welcome to the forum! | |
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-- Mom to Pixie, 7 year old sheltie,inherited from my mother-in-law 3/11. Dx of EPI 9/09. TLI in 10/09 was 0.4 ug/L. As of 12/2/11, Folate fasting levels was 13.6 ug/L, and Cobalamin fasting was 615. Current weight 21.7 lbs (4/13), solid member of the Chunky Monkey Club! Ideal weight around 17, I think, but she's not obese at this weight, so maybe 17 is a little low. Feeding grain free - Natural Balance canned lamb and Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Lamb kibble. Giving slightly less than 1/2 tsp Pancreatin 8X per 1/2 cup of food. Tylan currently 1x/day. Also takes 1/2 tablet pepcid for stomach upset 2x/day. Primal Defense probiotics 1/8 tsp, 3x/week. Getting bi-weekly B-12 shots. Our little pack also includes my husband, our 12 year old sheltie, Lucy, and our 9 year old sheltie, Einstein.
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Member Posts: 1463 |
Hi Polly and welcome to you and Luke. I'm afraid I can't be very helpful with this either as we don't feed raw. I'm always interested though in hearing what others do as I'm concerned about Cedar's teeth and think we should maybe incorporate some raw.
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- Barb -
Mom to Cedar, diagnosed with EPI Nov 1, 2010, TLI 1.2, Feb 2013 B12 653 (150-700), Folate 23 (7-39); B12 injections weekly; 1 3/4 tsp pancreatin 8X/meal, 1 1/4 c TOTW Pacific Stream or Sierra Mountain + 1/2 c add ins (pork, salmon, sardines, haddock, egg, pumpkin are the usual), 1/3 c water, incubated x 30 minutes; 2 meals/day; current weight 68.9 lbs. Also has Pannus; treated with tacrolimus ointment 2 x daily each eye and gets 100 ug Vit E daily for immature cataracts. Also Mom to pupkids Bree and Griffin, and catkids Abby, Diamond and Max...and skinkid Ayden
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Member Posts: 875 |
Hi to Polly and Luke as well. I also do not feed raw, so I am no help there,but await you posting those test results! Welcome! | |
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-- Kain, 4 yr. old GSD, Mom, Nicole, Dad, Joe, Sister Angel, 7 year old GSD, Sister Noni, 7 year old cat, and Twin Sisters, Eva and Mia, age 4. B-12: 369, TLI: less than 1, Folate: 15.7.Started Enzymes 1/14/11. Currently Handfed ,1 tsp./c, 2 1/2 cups fed once daily and 1 1/2 cup fed once daily. Nature's Variety, TOTW, Back to Basics, California Natural, all in monthly rotation, Let enzymes set 30 min. Low weight, 48 lbs, down from high of ONLY 66. Bi-Weekly B-12 shot of 1.4ml. All time high weight EVER on 12/11/11 at 71 lbs., one of the happiest days of my life! *NEW WEIGHT of 76 lbs.!*
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Lulu is super-smart, a bit plump and very pretty (everybody says so - including her!).
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