EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Hi all,

My dog Jade has now been put on prescription enzymes for every meal.

1. How long does it usually take to see a weight gain? She is a very picky eater and will not eat cottage cheese or other good stuff like that- just kibble and baked chicken thighs (no skin).

2. What other meds do your dogs take? She is on Ursodial and Met.

Thanks for a reply- this is all new to us. She is 12, full of energy and runs through the park still. People think she's a much younger dog.

Nadia & Jade

Hi Nadia & Jade

1:Weight gain is different for every dog. It was trial and error for Jewels at first. She was diagnosed in June and didnt start gaining until November. When we finally found out what worked she gained 1lb per week until she hit 15lbs and then slowed down but she is now 19.2lbs(2.2lbs over her goal weight) My second EPI dog Thor has only been with me for 3 weeks and we have a 7lb weight gain already(15-20lbs to go). As long as the medications are working properly with your dog you shouldnt have to wait too long for results.Sometime the vet enzymes are just not strong enough(that was the case for Jewels) A lot of people here are on powdered enzymes from enzyme diane. It is a lot more cost effective and they work extremely well. I have both my dogs on them and havent looked back.

2. Jewels is on Tylosin for SIBO which I cannot take her off of. She will most likely be on it for the rest of her life. Thor is not on anything at the moment but I will be starting him on a round of Tylan to get rid of any possible SIBO.

Thank you. My babe is on Met and we're new to this whole thing- only the first week. Our major issue is she doesn't like the powdered enzymes because it makes the food 'gooey'. She isn't used to that. We are currently using Panacare Plus. It has fatty acids in it that I think are good. Diane's doesn't say exactly what's in hers but again, does anyone use tablets with any success?

HI Nadia and welcome to you and Jade!

I have been using EnzymeDiane's enzymes for about 5 years..... go to her MAterial Safetly Sheet and that explains what is in the enzymes she sells... however.... when you get enzymes from Diane, she includes the actual USP material safety data sheet that was done on that particular batch of enzymes.... so you are getting not an estimate of what is in the product, but what actually tested out in that product.

Ahhhhh the gooey oatmeal consistency..... If Jade like the crunch... then mix 3/4 of the food with the enzymes and a little bit of warm water, let it sit but then.... jsut before you are ready to serve it to her throw in the last 1/4 of the kibble so that she has some "crunch" ..... THis works for some dogs.

Most people do not have great luck with the tablets ... however..... that is not to say they will not work. They can and do work for some dogs.  Terry uses tablets for her dogs and a few other people also do too.... Terry found that what worksfor her dogs  is that she crushes the pills andthen  mixes it in the food...

Try to make the powder work..... you can add toppers such as a piece of sardine on top, BBQ sauce, parmesan cheese sprinkled on top... there are lots of little tricks.... but if this goes on and on and Jade simply doesn't want to eat with the powder, you can try CREON 10 (or start at CREON 10... and play around with the dose to see if 10, 20 or 25 is required) these are enteric coated capsules that you do not let incubate in the food until it gets mushy. Problem with CREON is that it is more expensive and you have to play around with the dose until you find what works best for your dog.

Has Jade had her B12 level checked?  Also.... any tummy grumblings or gas which would indicate SIBO...which i am assumjing that is why she is on Met (Metronidazole) ????  keep an eye on the SIBO (gas tummy grumblings and or sloppy stools).... if it looks like the Metronidazole is not working after 7-10 days, ask the vet to switch it out for Tylan. 

WHy is she on Ursodial?  

By the way.. she looks wonderful in her profile picture!

Welcome to the Forum.  I just saw your post and am headed to bed (almost midnight here) so I will write more in the morning.  I use tablets with great success with our two epi pups....however I still crush them and add them and water to the kibble and let sit for 20 minutes...it is less volume than powdered enzymes.  I use PancrePlus tablets.  If you want to try tablets I will be happy to go over ratio as it is different than powdered enzymes.

I just wanted to say a quick welcome to the forum.  Jade is beautiful!  The only thought I have to add to what others have already said is that I'm wondering what kibble you are feeding.  Most dogs with EPI (I'm assuming Jade's been diagnosed since she's on the enzymes) do much better with grain-free food.  The other thing is how much enzymes you are using.  The recommended starting point is 1 tsp of enzymes per cup of food.  Mix it in with a little warm water and let it sit for at least 20 minutes to avoid mouth sores.  If you're not using enough enzymes, or if everything the dog eats is not treated with enzymes then you will continue to have problems. 

As for the medicines,  I'm not familiar with ursodial.  Pixie is on tylan to ward off SIBO, probiotics, and pepcid for acid reflux.

Welcome Nadia to you and Jade.  She is beautiful. Kolby put his nose up at the enzymed food at first and he did not like the consistency either, but with time and familiarity, he eventually got used to it.

It took Kolby a  while to start gaining weight.  He stopped losing once we found the right food for him, but it was several months before he gained and it was at a very slow pace.   Some dogs gain a whole bunch right away.   But even though it was slow, it was very steady and he is now at his target weight. 

The beginning is the hardest time, so hang in there and ask all the questions you want. One thing that helped us enormously was the suggestion to keep a log/journal of everything you give your dog and what the poops look like.  You can download a blank log form from the tab at the top of the page.  It helps you to see patterns and to figure out what works and what doesn't.  We just used a notebook and recorded everything that went into Kolby's mouth--how much food, the measurement of enzymes, medication etc. etc.   It gave us an amazing amount of information that helped us to make decisions about his treatment.  

It is great that Jade is full of energy and is enjoying playing and being herself. 

Let us know how she is doing.

Barb

Hello Nadia - 

Everyone has already given great ideas but I did want to say Welcome to the Forum.... and that I love the name Jade!

Welcome Nadia and Jade,

As you've read the weight gain can be slow, some dogs struggle. We had fantastic weight gain, over 18 lbs in the first 5-6 weeks for a total of 39 lbs. He looked great but I like him on the lean side so he has had to take off a few lbs every now and then. I never thought my once scrawny boy would ever have to loose weight and there a quite a few dogs here that have had to diet a bit. Once everything is in place Jade will gain weight at her pace.

Welcome to the forum.     Ahhhh...I remember those early days - running to the vet every few days to put Jackie on the scale in the lobby to see if there was weight loss/gain.    It will happen - every dog is different - but once you find the balance the weight does come.    I always felt even if it was just a lb gained - that is one lb not lost.   I wish you the best - plese do keep us posted.

epi4dogs at May 1, 2012 at 12:08 AM

HI Nadia and welcome to you and Jade!

I have been using EnzymeDiane's enzymes for about 5 years..... go to her MAterial Safetly Sheet and that explains what is in the enzymes she sells... however.... when you get enzymes from Diane, she includes the actual USP material safety data sheet that was done on that particular batch of enzymes.... so you are getting not an estimate of what is in the product, but what actually tested out in that product.

Ahhhhh the gooey oatmeal consistency..... If Jade like the crunch... then mix 3/4 of the food with the enzymes and a little bit of warm water, let it sit but then.... jsut before you are ready to serve it to her throw in the last 1/4 of the kibble so that she has some "crunch" ..... THis works for some dogs.

Most people do not have great luck with the tablets ... however..... that is not to say they will not work. They can and do work for some dogs.  Terry uses tablets for her dogs and a few other people also do too.... Terry found that what worksfor her dogs  is that she crushes the pills andthen  mixes it in the food...

Try to make the powder work..... you can add toppers such as a piece of sardine on top, BBQ sauce, parmesan cheese sprinkled on top... there are lots of little tricks.... but if this goes on and on and Jade simply doesn't want to eat with the powder, you can try CREON 10 (or start at CREON 10... and play around with the dose to see if 10, 20 or 25 is required) these are enteric coated capsules that you do not let incubate in the food until it gets mushy. Problem with CREON is that it is more expensive and you have to play around with the dose until you find what works best for your dog.

Has Jade had her B12 level checked?  Also.... any tummy grumblings or gas which would indicate SIBO...which i am assumjing that is why she is on Met (Metronidazole) ????  keep an eye on the SIBO (gas tummy grumblings and or sloppy stools).... if it looks like the Metronidazole is not working after 7-10 days, ask the vet to switch it out for Tylan. 

WHy is she on Ursodial?  

By the way.. she looks wonderful in her profile picture!

Jade absolutely could not eat the goo- besides it smelled rank even to me. So we're trying tablets.I make sure I give them to her when she is eating and no problems.

She's off ursodial now. No need for it that I can see now. She is also off MET for now. Used it when she would turn her head from food and stop eating.  I will check her stool tho- she had a 90% normal one yesterday for the first time in a year.

I am trying the B12 intrinsi pills- we've been through so much expense now I'm not sure I want to try paying for a very expensive test and re-testing-

I'm going to try a new vet..the one I have is slow to respond to my questions and phone calls. I hope I can work with the new vet and give Jade injectectable B12. It's cheap and easy for me to do. He probably will want a baseline B12 tho.

So Jade is eating well, grain free LID Chicken kibble and canned from Natural Balance 3 x a day about 2 cups each time. She used to eat 4 cups of kibble a day but I am hoping she wants to gain some weight now and is digesting well.

thank you for all your help- I am SO glad I found this forum!

WAHOO on the almost normal poo!!!

Hopefully Terry will chime in anyway..and let you know how she uses the tablets   you might find what her does helpful. Glad to hear Jade is eating well now. .... some dogs just really don't like the enzymes.... so we do the best we can to get them to eat..., either via covering up the taste or if we have to ...by switching products...sounds like switching products is working for you and Jade.

The B12 pills with the intrinsic factor... if you are tight on money... you might want to cosider going with the Wonderlab"Trinfac"  they are much less expensive than the Metagenics.  BUT..... if you give her either of these B12 pills.... and then test her B12 levels.... her B12 reading will read what her levels are AFTER benefiting from these intrinsic factor included B12 pills.....so you really won't know if she does or does not need B12 supplementation.Either test her first and then administer the B12  .... or give her the B12 and then test in a few months to make sure her B12 levels are upper  mid range.

Regarding vets.... best ones are ones that are willing to work with you ;).... 

Hope Jade continues to get better and better... and gain weight.... but don't get too discouraged if she takes her time putting on the weight. Some gain it back fast and others take forever, but it does happen once you find the right balance or everything.