EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Thanks Sharon, I'm at the stage with Wallace that I don't care what works as long as it works! And the vets aren't the ones coping with this condition, so like you I hear their advice but if tripe is the difference between eating and not eating then I'm not stopping it!

I noticed that Wallace poos improved when I started him on the tripe, the firmest they'd ever been. So there must be something in there that helps.

And here we are again, he's refused his dinner tonight. Isn't B12, he got that on Friday. EPI is emotionally draining.

If I ever work out the answers I'll be sure to post!! xox

Sharon

My tale doesn’t relate to an EPI dog so I don’t know whether it is relevant for your research.

I has a dog that refused to eat I had to use enticers which I had to rotate she would settle with one for a bit and then we would have to try something else anything with a picture of a dog on a tin was a no no but most things like sardines tuna chicken pate etc and I could get her to eat although some days even with that I struggled

Anyway what I am coming to on this is that she had issues with anal glands and was showing early sign of HD which used to cost me an arm and a leg at the vets I mentioned this to the local pet shop owner and he suggested I tried a different kibble ,,,,,,,bingo from that day on I had no more problems and yes I did chuck in the occasional table scrap but also her health issues disappeared

What I did always do was protein rotation with this new food so she didn’t get bored. And with Maddie and Otto I still maintain this now Maddie is stable I also use food from different manufacturers..

So I am with the theory that there is something underlying going on like B12 or possible SIBO and your dog is telling you this but is you have a entire male then a bitch on heat can cause havoc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!,.

Ann

PS there are a couple of people that havent chimed in on this still

Gillian & Wallace at May 20, 2012 at 5:41 PM

Thanks Sharon, I'm at the stage with Wallace that I don't care what works as long as it works! And the vets aren't the ones coping with this condition, so like you I hear their advice but if tripe is the difference between eating and not eating then I'm not stopping it!

I noticed that Wallace poos improved when I started him on the tripe, the firmest they'd ever been. So there must be something in there that helps.

And here we are again, he's refused his dinner tonight. Isn't B12, he got that on Friday. EPI is emotionally draining.

If I ever work out the answers I'll be sure to post!! xox

Hi Gillian Sorry to hear Wallace didn't eat for you last night, on the bright side maybe he'll munch down breakfast for you!! (Got my fingers crossed) ;-) I'm going to be adding this post to your other post in my computer and so on with everyone; I just hope I can keep up.

I think I said, you and we are running 2 weeks apart! Hans ate tripe for 30 day straight, then stopped!!

Did you notice a personality change before having to feed the Tripe on a daily basis? (If there was with Hans I didn't think to catch it)

Tripe : The Tripe issue is a little concerning to me because, just off hand Tripe has enzymes, which if a person was to jump to conclusions, they’d say "quick, raise the amount of enzymes your giving" However these NON Eater dogs are stable .........(so don't do that lol)

But you also stated you saw a difference in the poop. (I didn't see this with Hans but it doesn’t mean it didn't happen. We're on a farm so he goes about his business on a 50/50 thing; sometimes I see it sometimes not)

Next Tripe has lots of plant life nutritional value. So is there a vitamin/mineral missing from plants these dogs are not getting???

Tripe also has amino acids, calcium: phosphorous (ratio is 1:1 I’m looking at the ratio being important,) fatty acids, Linoleum and Linolenic, (in their recommended proportions- Thinking the proportion is important), Lactic Acid Bacteria is the good intestinal bacteria. (I remember you posting this already)

What I was looking at here are the things that are not found in large amounts in a normal dog’s diet, as in plain old out of the bag dog food, non epi dog. I remembered Pancreas OR Tripe is LOADED with B12!! From all of the above right now I would say it's the Pancreas (I can't find the paper work right now)

So looking back at Tripe this way, it could be a vitamin deficiency they are trying to fix themselves, or they could be trying to increase the good gut bacteria or are they preferring Tripe because its just the right proportions stated above? Etc.

No matter which one it is they are Defiantly Self medicating so there is something we are over looking!

I agree with you, it’s not the B12 UNLESS "This hand full of dogs need extremely high numbers" I'll explain that more in the next post down.

Thanks for your help! Keep posting!! I’m looking for the answer just like everyone else!!

Sharon

Sorry for the longggg response :-)

Hi Ann

Oh yes, your tale is a welcome one!! Hop in anytime.

We have gone down the changing food idea to the point we had 5 different foods on hand. It got to the point he would not eat any of the 5 believe it or not. To explain 5 different foods briefly, each dog had a different issue, one Heart; one was a puppy, EPI, arthritic and one food just to change flavors. Hans was eating puppy food at age 4, “boy” did I get told about that on the EPI site LOL. As Gillian said “you feed what they will eat”!

I know some where along the line there is a person who is changing food something like every bag and it has helped her dog maintain. It's a very good thought. Not one I have ruled out.

On the SIBO issue, Hans has broken the rule that says if stools are 100% then there is no SIBO. There are times when Tylan will make him eat, but why? The Stool is normal, the Tylan don't change that so is he eating because the Tylan is upsetting his belly???? Or is it SIBO with out a change in the stools???

Now the B12 issue (I'm leaning toward) But I'm thinking low is not the issue as much as "how much is enough"???? Are there dogs that need an unreasonable about of B12???

Hans received his B12 injection Sunday. (1.7cc. every 2 weeks) so it kicked in last night or so. This AM he walked in the room (I didn't have to push him into the room, thank you B12) got to one foot of his bowl, sniffed and turned around heading out the door!! That sounds like he's sick of the food, so changing flavors is something I was going to do until the recall came up. Finding another food is on my things to do list. Finding being the key word, finding something that is sold around here is the issue.

Back to B12, there was a time when Hans was doing PERFECT!!!

Stools, personality, hair coat, aggression, eating ALLL AT 100%

Now you say "What changed??" Answer “The B12”

He was doing so well I wanted to know where all his blood reads were so I knew where they needed to be. So I got him tested.

Well his B12 came back at GREATER THEN 1000!!!

That is not a typo!!! Reference Range 249-733

The Folate was 20.5 !!!!! Reference Range 6.5 - 11.5 nor is this a Typo.

The high Folate we (the vet and I) decided was because of the Metagenics B12.

Like I say Hans was 100% at this point.

Now for reasons I don't remember "I" didn't like his B12 or Folate that high! Its seemed WAY out of reason. So I cut back on Metagenics and did a SIBO treatment that was all back 7/19/2011.

Now here I am going on a year later still trying to get him to eat and keep the B12 at a reasonable range. Now B12 has not be tested since then, I do know when it gets to low the aggression comes right out. What I don't know is what that low number is.

I also know that in April 2010 Hans only required 1 cc per month and I have had to raise it to 1.7 cc 2 times a month since then AND added the B12 Pills. I’m even thinking of going to once a week at this point.

He is going on 8 years old, from adult to older age dog. Does that mean that as these dogs get older they need more supplementation??? Is 1000 REALLY what these guys need??? If so.........WHY???

Please excuse the above, it is me thinking out loud, looking for input, I'm not lecturing you :-) At this point I have more then 16 people/dogs that will benefit if I/we can answer these questions.

I almost forgot the bitch in heat thing, I've had several in-tacked males......I never had one like this........trust me when I say it DON"T have to be a dog in season it can be ANYTHING, cat, goat, horse and its not that he tries to mount, he just stops eating!!

And with that being said I’ll shut up LOL

Ah but you may have hit on a point here.........

If Olesia reads this she mentioned that her vet suggsted B12 for all of her dogs as they were getting older so not just IZZy all of her elders and actually i have started to do this with my 9year old now.

 Maddie see signature her B12 was low i kept on weekly for months but then i imported the B12 from wonderlabs and gave her one a day she has never touch wood refused a meal and touching wood again had a re-occurence of Sibo.

As for green tripe the vets dont recommend you feeding it as an only food nothing wrong with it on top as an enticer like you it lacks something but i cant remeber what...........................

Folate um i am not sure wether if you are on the meg b wether that gives a true reading not clever enough to work that out some times we worry to much about numbers if we dont know what external factors may influence them.

Ann

If ageing is the reason we are having to raise B12 that is fine in a way.

I'm hopeing by looking at eveyones info that I/we can establish that.  I would really hate to be filling these dogs with B12 and hiding an underlying problem.

Hans was up to once a week injections, (1 cc I think).  I worried because "Where do you go from once a week?"  twice a week, then daliy???  I hate getting injections, I really hate to have to find out that daily injections would be nessary.

As I was saying he was a once a week guy.  Then I started the Medageics (sp?) B12 and we could go 2 weeks. If I'm not mistaken this is when the B12 shot to 1000.

As of right now he's on the Medagicis B12 1 pill 2 times a day and everyother week 1.7 cc injection.  I was thinking of going to weekly injections until this AM.

YESSS I did it.... I went and picked up a case of evo can 95% meat, I gave him 1/2 a can in place of his raw..........he ate this AM feeding like a normal NON EPI dog!! What a knuckle head LOL.

Dispite this I'm still condencing the info I received and looking for answers. Once I get a list together I'll be posting it look for thoughts.  Of course this is only going to happen if the DARN GRASS quits growing!!!!  LOL 

Here is  a short list of things thought of

Changing food (Had to put that on first:P)

Noise/ circumstances change (superisingly there are a couple with this issue) I really have to look into OCD Obsessive Compalsive Disorder I wonder if dogs can get that??? I found they do get ADD:D.

de-stabilizes / maybe never really stabilized

B12 This is a big one in so many different ways!!

exercie

Water  was stated (we'er on well) anyone think of that?  Food we're all feeding different foods so I wouldn't think that would enter in except for the changing thing. Also we are looking at different breeds. I have not checked ages.....I will dieffently look at that.  I'm in the country/wooded pasture area, I don't think eveyone lives in the woods????

Charlie is a rescue Boston Terrier, who couldn't care less about eating, I've learned!  One day I forgot to call him in for breakfast (boring Hill's ID daily, ,mixed with Diane's 8X Pancreatin).  Later in the day he came to me looking at his bowl(!), so I then gave him the refrigerated food I had mixed earlier, and to my surprise he ate all of it!  So, from then on I have been waiting until he "tells" me that he is hungry before I put down his food.  I must admit that I leave the food he hasn't finished on the floor just in case (which sometimes happens) he decides to finish his meal later.  I feed him twice a day like this.  I do realize that he has become a very spoiled dog and I know this is not the proper way to train a dog; but I feel so happy when he finishes his meals (that he "orders")!!  He started out weighing 17 pounds and now weighs 23 pounds and has good poos.  He also gets a B12 shot (1/2 cc.) weekly, a probiotic with one of his meals, and a squirt of salmon daily (Olesia's suggestion).  None of this info may help, but I wanted to send it just in case.  Also, Charlie is very easily distracted while he is eating and in that case will stop eating, just as your dog does.  I guess this happens with some dogs no matter what their breed is!     Buffy and Charlie

Marilyn

I have a question... You said this: NOT RUBY BUT HER Brother. Won't eat unless really hungry...very picky,,,we have to be quiet and not do anything or he has to know what's going one.

You say not Ruby but her Brother.  Ruby is EPI.......Is that her Blood brother??

As in same sire and dam?  Different / same litters???

Hi Buffy   Charlie is a cuteee!!  Yes your infromation helps alot!!

Your helping back up the free feeding/several meals a day idea!!

Thank you so much for your information

Just and FYI the reason I asked for non eater replys only was because I knew everone with normal EPI dog owners (LOL) would say B12 and drop it there.

sharon - as I am sitting her posting, Charlie has decided to finish his dinner....  he just sat there for about 10 minutes looking at it (he had had part of it about 4 hours ago), and just now he decided to eat the rest.  I have no idea what he was thinking during that 10 minutes!  but I just kept very quiet and ignored him.

Thanks for the compliment about Charlie.  He is cute, and that's probably why I put up with his nonsense!!!  Buffy and Charlie

Buffy you and Charlie sound like a pair.........Your both a real Hoot !!

Study Update (19 so far in all)

all ages are 6 to 8 but 2, they are 4 years old. The 2- 4 year olds are GSD As far as I can tell we have mostly gsd with a beagle and a boston throwen in for fun!!  If not for the the 4 year olds this would back up the ageing idea for the reason to increase B12 

All are on different foods   I'm planning on posting a list. If we are going to have to start changing food or lures/inticers I thought it would be nice to have a list to choose from.

All on different enzymes Creon, PanaKare, 6x, 8x  

Free feeding or the 3 or 4 meals a day is starting to look good to.

I'm just looking at general things right now. I'm planning on getting more techie with things like IBD, Blood Gloucose (I'm hoping for a few CBC's) Liver readings, Pancrease readings ( Amylase and Lipace)  I'm also trying to decide how to collect this information from eveyone.

OCD Yes dogs do get it!!  Here is a good link to see if your dog fits.  There is nothing in this about dogs that do not eat.

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Mental-Disorders/Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder.aspx

Hi sharon

Maezi  -2 yr old blue heeler - First mate chicken & blueberries with boiled chicken & bit o pumpkin with pancratin 8x

--morning meals are hardest to get her to eat - now i take her for good walk first then feed her try to work up appetite

--It has to be all quiet /no interruptions or goings on around her & have to stay with her

--likes smaller amounts on plate like give her 1/2 then the other 1/2 (1cup meal)

--she uses a flat stainless steel dish that is raised off floor a bit

--add enticers on the top to get her started as it is the hardest to get her started - then have to throw in more if she stops eating

--lots of praise

--have resorted to spoon feeding on occasion

--lately have tried pre-incubating meals and then refirgerate them >she seems to like this better -as well i have had to hand feed this to her but its easier as it is not so mushy

--once she stops and leaves her dish for whatever reason it is pretty much impossible to get her to eat anymore

--she will most days eat 2 meals  sometimes 3

--used to feed at 9 and 9 for meds but now can feed at 10-11 breakie and other meal(s) later in the day as needed

Hope this helps

wanda and maezi  

Hi Wanda

All information is a help!!  Thank you for adding!!!

The problems you are seeing are the same through out.

You have added another age and breed to the mix!

Exercise has been covered but not before the meal. You are the 3rd person to have the noise/activity issue!! 3 of us use the praise idea. Your idea of pre-incubating meals and then refrigerate them, I don’t believe anyone mention this yet.

So as you can see, all information is useful

I’m really glad you took the time to pop in.

Thank you again

Sharon

Hi everyone I have not forgotten you!!

Do to a recent back injury (remember that grass I told you about?) my computer time has been limited because sitting and standing are not good options!!

Please watch your private e mail message area on the site, as I sit down is spirts to work on this I’m e mailing some with questions, comments, or quote Vera vacations.

As always thank you for your input, time and help!!

Sharon

Thanks Shirl .........Pain is the key word LOL.

Marilyn Marinelli

NOT RUBY BUT HER Brother ......If these 2 are blood brother and sister get the Non epi dog's b12 checked. Keep it as if it were and EPI dog (High normal) ...we have bro and sis also and found this necessary.... more on that later and I will answer your post later. I'M VERY SORRY FOR THE MIX UP!!! I understand you don't know me yet, and I will answer you post in a civilized manner!!!!