EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

Hi everyone,

First, I cannot say enough thank you's to all of you and I am so grateful for this site!  I'm glad I found it and it is here for me and my sweet Abbey girl.

We got our first dose of enzyme powder and started it yesterday.  Abbey also had a B12 shot yesterday at the vet's office.  She's had her evening meal and this morning's meal with the powder.  Ate most of her food with the powder no problem BUT...

Where she had solid stool BEfore, she now has diaherhea!  Really running stuff that now truly looks like what is on this web site!

Does any of you have had this experience with your dog's first B12 shot and start of the powder in their food?

Thanks in advance for your support,

Janice & Abbey

Hi Janice....Kodi did not need b12 shots, but I keep her levels up with Instrinsi B12/ Folate  from Metagenics, so I cannot help you there...I am sure some one with that experience will chime in and help you.  If you could go back to your home page  (Click on your name under the small photo at the leftof your post , then click edit) and add the info of Abbey  tests results, what you are feeding, how much, how many enzymes per cup and any meds... weight , in the signature space, it will automatically come up  with all of your posts ) then as you ask questions we can suggest ideas and we will not keep having to re read all of the posts for your info, everything will be right there.  :~   And more important... you will not have to keep repeating yourself !!!!    

With Abbeys next meal....grate some raw carrots into her food , they will not digest, but will give you her 'transit time' .. meaning the time between her eating that meal... and when it comes out !!! That will help as you make any changes.. you will now if the new change is helping or not. Also... keep a log  (There is one in the download section above..or just use a notebook)....record what you are feeding...shots, meds...time in ..and time out (you will know her transit time), this is part of getting her stable.. and don't worry....it gets easier !!!  Remember, we have all been in your shoes....

Janice,

I posted on your other post by mistake while I was looking up information.   I copied it here:

Hi Janice,

You mentioned "occasional diarrhea" in another post.   I am wondering if either the SIBO has just kicked in and she needs antibiotics for it (I didn't see anywhere that you are giving anti's.   Am I correct or did I miss it?) 

or

the ratio of enzymes to food is off.    Can you tell us what kind of enzyme powder you are using and the amounts of  amylase, protease, and lipase it contains (listed on the jar. 

Also how much powder are you putting in the food per cup of food?  Too much enzyme can cause diarrhea as well as too little.  

I know.....this trial and error system is "trying!"   It will get better.   

Barb

We had this problem with Kolby at first until we adjusted the enzymes.   Our vet wanted to "kick this EPI hard," so he recommended a high dose of powder..... the good folks here helped me to adjust it.  

Hi,

The Enzyme is call PancrePlus made by VetONE.  4 oz. I cannot find anywhere where you guys are saying 6X or 8X??  She also received a B12 injection when she was at the vet's yesterday.  She did not get anything for SIBO yet.  The vet said she will consult and think about this and get back with me.

I will try and get on the enzyme Diane's site and see if I can find some answers.

I feel much better now that I've read this site and many of you are saying that the enzyme needs to be adjusted.  The directions from our vet was 3 teaspoons with each meal.  I will try cutting back some and see if it'll work.  I was dismayed that she did not have much of a diahhrea problem before and now she is full fledge diahhrea!

I cannot say enough how great this site is and how thankful I am to you all who has replied.

I just submitted my post and did not list the ingredients of the PancrePlus enzyme powder.  Here it is:

Lipase 71,400 USP units

Protease 388,000 USP units

Amylase 460,000 USP

Vitamin A 1,000 IU

Vitamin D3 100 IU

Vitamin E 10IU

Does this help??  I have no idea what this all means except for the vitamins.

Hi Janice,

Most powdered pancreatin is 6X and what you are using is 6X. Try using 1 tsp per cup of food.

I have never used injections, I have always used oral B12 but we do have a member whose dog always had very soft mushy poop after an injection but not quite liquid. See what tweaking the enzymes produces.

Hi Janice,

The 6X and 8X strengths are those given by Diane of Enzyme Diane, where most of us who use powdered enzymes get them. (you would not see these letters on your jar of enzymes)  Kathy is correct.  If you were ordering from Diane (you can find a chart  on her website, enzymediane.com) what you are using would be comparable to the 6X Pancreatin that she provides. 

We generally suggest 1tsp enzymes per cup of food, as Kathy said, to begin with, then adjust up or down as needed.   As I said in my other post, our vet gave me a dosage quite a bit over that so I had to adjust down.    However, he also was not doing well on the food he was eating, so that became another issue for us at the beginning.  

I agree with Kathy.   Adjust the enzymes to 1 tsp per cup of food first and see what the poops look like.   If you are keeping a log, this is the kind of information you want to put there so you can see the results on paper.   It helps to clarify things. 

How are you preparing the enzymes and the food?  Everyone has their own way, but generally we dissolve the powder in warm water (not hot) and then pour it over the kibble.   Stir the mixture thoroughly until all the food has been in contact with the enzyme water.   Then let it sit.......most people can get away with letting it soak 30 minutes at first.   Kolby, however, got mouth ulcers, so we had to go to 45 minutes.  Not every dog is so sensitive .....many are not bothered by the enzymes at all. 

I have not ever seen a bad poo reaction to the B12 injection like you describe, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.   I am more inclined to think it is the enzyme/food ratio.....or the B12 hasn't kicked in yet and hers is low. 

Please keep asking questions and letting us know how she is doing.  You are doing a great job.   The beginning is the hardest part.

Barb

Thank you Kathy and Barb for your good advices. 

I would like to buy the enzymes from Diane but will switching the enzymes now mess Abbey up even more?  Or is it better to do it now rather than later? 

I am also having trouble getting Abbey to eat.  I've had her since she was 4 month's old.  She has never been a good eater.  I'm finding that I'm throwing a lot of her food away.... now much more expensive with adding the enzyme powder.  Can the mixture be saved for the next meal??

You guys are awsome!  A big thank you.

Hi Janice,

Welcome from us as well. your pups are beautiful. Switching from one powdered enzyme to another shouldn't have any effect on Abbey at all. Abbey may have reduced appetite for a number of reasons: her B12 is likely still quite low; her tummy may be sore if she has SIBO; she may be put off by the taste of the enzymes. Whatever the cause, she may eat better if you feed her smaller meals more frequently and a topper such as sardines might help to stimulate her appetite. If you are able to feed her smaller meals more frequently, just remember to keep the enzyme: food ratio the same, 1tsp/cup. And still incubate it for the same amount of time. Had Abbey lost a lot of weight? If so, it's recommended to feed 150% of normal amount until the weight is gained back. Some folks here do prepare food in advance and then refridge it, but we don't do that so I can't comment from experience.

Hi Janice and Abbey

Welcome from us as well. Was going to say same as Barb - with maezi when we first started I fed her 1/2 cup meals w !/2 tsp enzymes as that was all she would eat with topper of boiled chicken.    So maybe try only mixing up small meals for now. Also use a flat plate instead of a bowl - Put only small amount at a time on the plate as Abbey eats it add more .       I   pre-incubate and refrigerate and feed 1 cup meals now but this does not work for all dogs so u may want to wait before trying this.

We too had no problem swtiching from Vets enzymes to Dianes enzymes and it was a huge savings.

As far as "their quality of Life" - now that Maezi is stable and at her goal weight and her feeding/care etc has become 'routine' she lives a normal happy life like our other non-EPI dog. We had a rough start at this but It does get better 

Good luck with Abbey    

Thank you Cedar's mom and Wanda.  OK, I know now it's not a concern to switch enzymes.  Abbey usually gets 3 cups each meal.  Twice a day.  I will split up the meals into lesser quantities as you advise. 

I paid $106 for a 4 ounce bottle of enzymns.  At 3 tspm per feeding, we will run out before this week is over.  Must switch to buying it cheaper soon.

Wanda, I would like to try and pre-incubate and refrigerate the food.  Can I go a large amount?  Can you give me details on how you do yours?  Do you take it out of the refrig early and let it sit at room temperature?

Appreciatively,

Janice

Hello Janice

You ahve gotten great advice already. I am one that mixed up food teh night before and left it out for 20 minutes then popped them in the fridge. I did individual dinners so I knew the enzymes were mixed with the right amount of food. I do know some that mix them all at once and dish them out. So if you add warm water to the food with the enzymes mix well then let sit at least 20 minutes then refridgerate you should be good. Not all dogs handle it well this way but most do and some will not like it cold. You can take that extra food that was left that she does not eat and save it for later too.

I am not a huge fan of grinding kibble as I dont have time but some find best results this way. Sarge never had bad poops with B12 and we did the shots so I can not help there.

Yes the 6x is about the same as the prescription enzymes. 8x is stronger 1 tsp 6x=3/4 tsp 8x which is great for those that need a lot of enzymes or those that are picky eaters.

I hope this helps, you are in a great place for great advise.

Hi Janice- if she is picky alot of people use Sardines only a small amount to mask the smell or  parmesen cheese .

Sorry cant help with the rest but as you can see Diane is back and you can order your enzymes.

If she still wont eat her full meals in a day or to you may have to discuss antibotics with your vet also may be worth ordering the B12 tablets from wonderlabs look on the B12 tab its near the bottom of the page you can give her one once a day sometimes this helps boost the b12 stores quicker and is one thing that makes them eat..

Ann

janice

I  mix up her 1 cup dinners  in seperate  bowls with 3/4 tsp  8x enzymes with 1/4 cup warm water and let it incubate for 40 minute then put it in individual mealsize rubbermaid containers and put in fridge.

Maezi doesnt mind eating it cold right out of the fridge. I only mix up a day and half ahead of time....

wanda and maezi

Thank you everyone.  I will try mixing food and keep in the refrigerator.  I'll try a small amount and see if Abbey will eat it cold.

I just ordered the enzymes from Diane on the web site.  It is so much more reasonable!  Thank goodness!  Now is a matter of waiting and yes, worrying to see if all these treatments will work for her?!  It is the waiting and worrying that is the hardest for me.

Thanks again for all of your help and support.

It is never easy in the first few weeks but once you find the right amout of enzymes and get her to eat it  and get the B12 levels up it will just become part of your daily routine we all went through those emotions that you are feeling now..

I never had a problem with Maddie but my other dog cant stand waiting another 20 minutes everyday for his food !!!!!

Ann

Yes, I have been wondering, too.......

Barb

Diane has great enzymes - hoping the change will help.   I do know there have been some on the forum who right after the B12 did have their poops go south - some it took a day or two to get back to normal.    Pls do let us know how Abbey is doing...

I've been struggling to find the right powder dosage for my Border Collie puppy who was diagnosed at 11 monts last March.

Initially it seemed 1tsp for 1 1/2 kibble worked and now her stools are very soft again, but not  yellow like they were.

By increasing to 2 tsp for a little less kibble it seems the same.  Should I decrease or increase--it's like shooting at a moving target and so exasperating.

Thanks for any and all input.

Ed and Bonnie Lass