EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency

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Forum Home > General Discussion > 4 years old GSD, confirmed diagnosis today

Marie
Member
Posts: 57

Hello guys,

 

I am so happy to have found this forum you have no idea. Here is a little about me and my dear friend Swat.

 

First language is french so I hope its not to much of a hassle to understand me

 

I worked as a vet technician for 10 years but I have been teaching in highschool now for 3 years. I have had Swat for 2 years and he has always had diarrhea issues on and off.

 

I ran a TLI on him last week since his diarrhea had been getting out of control and he has lost a great deal of weight. Well, here it is confirmed, Swat has EPI. His TLI came back at 1.6 I think? (I will go pick up the detailed results, I spoke to a tech). and I was told his B12 was a little low.

 

Swatt is curently on a raw horse meat diet and his stools were the typical soft kind of beige colored you would expect from an EPI canine. I received his diagnosis today and also received the enzymes from Diane today (what a timing!)

 

Ill have to admit my vet sounds pretty clueless when it comes to what to do. He doesn't thing antibiotics are needed and doesn't see the link between the B12 and SIBO...sigh.

 

I live in the country so its going to be hard to find a good vet.

 

Today I mixed 1tbs of enzymes with his 1.6lbs of raw meat and water. Result; a very smelly dog and liquid stools. What should I do for his next meal? More or less enzymes? Or is this normal for the first time?

 

My vet doesn't believe in feeding raw to dogs and recomended a low fat (I thought this wasn't true anymore?) and highly digestible commercial food. Swat loves his meat and it has been the best results with him. (we tried so many commercial and vet foods out there and his meat gives him less diarrhea pre- enzymes).

 

So here we are, christmas eve, worried about our little guy. Thank you so much for your support.

 

Marie

 

 

December 24, 2012 at 11:25 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2633
Marie- Bienvenue a vous et Swat! ok, enough French! (your English is perfect). Several of of our members use Raw diets. Since I don't and I don't know who else will be around, I recommend you use the advanced search feature and look up raw diet ( or go to profile and send a message to Karen). I will say that the first poop after enzymes may not be indicative, you might have to wait unr the next one to see the results (transit times can vary). On your vet, not a surprise. It's a rare disease. As long as your vet is willing to learn from the info on this website, it's okay. Since Swat's B12 is a little low, it would be best to start with the b12 injections (see the b12 tab). You are definitely off to a good start. So glad you found us!
--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


December 24, 2012 at 11:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marie
Member
Posts: 57

Thank you so much for this quick reply...and the french welcome ;)

Ill look up the raw diet posts. Any chance you can recomend where I can get the injectable B12? Any kind better than others?

My vet will get back to me early january and I don't want to wait that long. 

I am reassured for his stools, I guess we will maintain the 1 tbs pet 1.6 lbs and see what happens. Ill keep you posted :)


December 24, 2012 at 11:43 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2633
I saw a recommendation for 2 teaspoons for 1 pound of food. I have read that EPI dogs need to have a lower bone content. On B12, I believe people obtained it from a website (if memory serves, something like B12.com. Then of course you would need syringes. You could also try the WonderLabs Trinfac pills that many use. While not research-supported, they work for many and would be a good stop gap until you get to the vet.
--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


December 25, 2012 at 9:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1491

Hi Marie, welcome to you and Swat:)

 

Depending on your location, you might be able to order generic (not multivitamin or complex) B12 online. The Wonderlabs B12 with intrinsic factor can be bought from Amazon.

 

I don't feed raw but would suggest that you download the log from the downloads section in the tabs above and keep track of what goes in and what comes out. If the poops are still loose or too many after about 3 days, increase the enzymes by 1/8 teaspoon for 3 days and see what happens.

 

It could be that SIBO is in play and Tylan can be bought online too. Sofie doesn't like the taste, it is bitter, so I buy gel caps and pill them - some sprinkle it right on the food.

 

Others will pop in who feed raw and can offer more help but it's a bit quieter than normal due to the holidays:)

 

It will get easier and there is a great bunch here who will help you along the way!

Happy Holidays to you and your family!!

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

December 25, 2012 at 11:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1491

Well, as if the French shouldn't have been a clue lol:) Welcome to a fellow Canadian! We can get the B12 from Wonderlabs and Tylan from Amazon in Ontario - I think I need a prescription for B12 shots but it may be different for you...

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

December 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marie
Member
Posts: 57

Hello again!

Thank you so much to both of you for the andive and referals!

Well here is an update on our beloved Swat this morning; FIRST SOLID POO IN OVER A YEAR!!! Woo hoo! the neighbord must think we are mentallyc halenged as we were both cheering and jumping with joy while we watched him poop lol

Ill get the B12 asap and maintain what we have been doing. Seeing him not obsessed with food had me to tears this morning. It has been a long ride for him and for us and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel is our best christmas present ever especialy our 13 years old boxer past just a week ago.

I can't find the words to express my gratitude for this forum. Thanks for the help!


PS Nice to hear of other people in beautyful Canada ;)

December 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Dar
Member
Posts: 2497

Hello and welcome !!!  Happy poop dance !!!  Isn't it exciting !!! :D . We understand your excitment!!!

--

  Dar and Kodi, From Washington state

 ' I aspire to be the person that my dog thinks I am !!'

Kodi (GSD female) , born August 19, 2010 , was diagnosed July 15, 2011 at 11 months .Lowest weight, 47 lbs, weight as of  4/27/2013  62.9 lbs. Our goal for her at this time is now 65 lbs. !!!   And she made it!! .  TLI .07 , Folate 9.4 , Cobalmin 536 .

Kodi is on Pioneer grain and potato free Pork, 2  cups kibble with added canned or home cooked pork 2 times a day with  3/4 teaspoons of enzymes (X 8 ) per cup,from Diane. (Also some home cooked meals)1 Trinfac-B capsule once a day. Also  1/8 t. of ground coriander, 1/16 t. of ground fennel seed and cinnamon per meal (for stomach acid and burps). Cylosporine 100 mg. every other day for her terrible spring allergies.

December 25, 2012 at 12:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 12931

HI Marie and a very warm welcome to you and Swat...but i am so sorry to hear that you lost your companion of 13 years recently... It is so hard to say goodbye to these wonderful  beings.


By the way....your English is perfect!   And we have a lot of lovely Canadians members here on the epi4dogs forum..


Well... i was going to say that your 1 tablespoon of enzymes per 1.6 lbs of raw meat is about right.... and i was going to suggest waiting a day or two because the food you feed Swat will take anywhere between 12-72 hours before you see the poop from it.... but it sounds like today you already  saw the results of food with the enzymes....so he must digest his food somewhere around 12 hours ;).


Talk to your pharmacists, see if you can get generic B12 serum from them without a prescription or possibly Sam's CLub or Costco (if you have these stores there) if not, you can order it online.... look at the PRODUCTS page here on this website... i have links listed. The dosing instruction  for the generic B12 serum is on the B12 page.


ALso.... please suggest to your vet to check out this site.... we back up what we say with peer reviewed veterinarian research, and the research is uploaded here on this site.  It sounds like you vet is going by very old EPI information....and they have come a LONG way now in effectively treating EPI... it is all about finding the right balance of:

  • enzymes
  • diet
  • B12 if needed
  • antibiotics if needed

... and this is what we can help you with.


1. Regarding the Low fat food....low fat food is NOT recommended for an EPI dog (recent research).... they found that low fat can actually hinder progress... unless there is another medical condition that requires the low fat.


2. Regarding antibiotics for SIBO.... give Swat one week... to see if (hopefully) the implementation of the enzymes are enough to alter his current bad gut flora (SIBO) from EPI to good gut flora.... if you see good poos start happening now... but that they start to get soft again or sloppy looking or they start to have a yellow tinge come back to them, or if they have slime on them or if he develops stinky gas and farts a lot OR if his tummy grumbles a lot.... if any of this happens after a week on enzymes... then it means the enzymes is taking care of the EPI (digesting) part, but was not able to address the SIBO (bad bacteria) part and you will need antibiotics to properly treat the SIBO.  If this happens, print the SIBO page and share with your vet.... and ask for 30-45 days of Tylan powder enough for 2 times a day dose (the dosing schedule is on the SIBO page).


Congrats on the good poo already!    And just so you know, you are in good company.... we ALL do this................... so welcome to the EPI POOP CLUB!




--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make chnages to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content  her diet. She now gets 1/2 Annamaet Lean kibble and 1/2 TOTW kibble with either lean pork loin meat, or chicken breast or tuna twice a day. She also receives  9 or 10 units of Vetsulin (depending on her blood glucose reading) a pork based insulin. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. And now we have to monitor her exercise.   It's been one heck of a journey... but aside from all that Izzy has gone thru with her health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


December 25, 2012 at 12:52 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2633

Great, Great News Marie. (I actually got tears in my eyes as I read your post - what a great Christmas present!) We're all a little poop-crazy here. Here's proof:

Doing the Happy Poop Dance!

--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


December 25, 2012 at 1:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Miss Lulupants
Administrator
Posts: 2187

I won't embarrass myself in French Marie but will say a warm Southern Hemisphere welcome to you and your SWAT Team! So wonderful to have such progress already! As others have said providing your vet is willing to work with you finding the right combination of food and meds shouldn't be a huge issue but you're already two steps ahead of the curve being a vet tech yourself and having found this forum.


So I'll just underline treating SIBO if present as an important factor in his recovery. If a folate test was done this can be indicative of SIBO but even with normal folate SIBO can still be an issue and will need to be treated at the same time as everything else. Once the good bugs regain control and the b12 kicks in you'll be doing the happy poop dance in homemade poop costumes and then you'll find out how much the neighbours really understand or if the 'For Sale' sign goes up and you can score yourself some cheap real estate 8)

oh and Paula, that's not a Happy Poop Dance, this is! 

--

Craig

Lulu (aka Miss Lulupants) is a 6 year old 'Red Shepherd' (Australian Red Heeler x Long-hair GSD) who lives on the Fleurieu Peninsula, South Australia. Diagnosed with EPI in April 2010. Currently on one Creon 25k per meal; 2.25 cups Taste of the Wild High Prairie Canine Formula kibble per day + one Wonderlabs Trinfac every 2nd day. Click here for diet/med details. Miss Lulupants' story has been archived but it starts here. Lulu currently weighs: 21.5kg (47.4 pounds). Is probably a Chunky Monkey again too :P Lulu is super-smart, a bit plump and very pretty (everybody says so - including her!).

December 25, 2012 at 6:30 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1491

Yeah!!! Doing the happy poop dance here too!

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

December 25, 2012 at 8:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Karen
Member
Posts: 1829

Hi Marie.  I feed RAW, it is the only thing that worked for mine.  If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask.  The only thing I was wondering is how often you feed.  1.6 lbs is a lot for one meal, or is it separated out into different meals?  I feed 16-18 oz 3 X day.  In the beginning, several smaller meals more often seem to help by not overloading their systems while they start to heal.  I was also able to lower the amount of enzymes used.  Most of us raw feeders can.  I tweaked down 1/8 tsp at a time, waiting a few days in between, until I found what worked best for us, which was 1/2 the amount of what I would use with kibble.  I think most use about 3/4 of the normal amount.  Raw has natural enzymes in it.  just a thought if after a bit of time you wanted to try to use a bit less.

 

Congrats on already seeing some success.

--
Karen & Jaime-Lyn
DOB 3/31/11
cTLI 7/9/13 3.0  10/19/13 2.4
EPI, low B12, SLO
Raw Fed
-----------------------------
Always in my heart
My Angel Hondo
EPI, IBD, SIBO, PLE, Weekly B12 injections
Raw Fed
7/19/04-5/22/13
December 25, 2012 at 8:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2633

Yes, Craig -- Your's definitely is a happy poop dance. LOL. But mine is cuter :D

--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


December 25, 2012 at 8:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

shirl
Member
Posts: 2162

I just wanted to add my welcome to the forum!  It's wonderful that you can do the Happy Poop Dance already!  And I'm sure our neighbors think we're a bit off, too, following the dogs around looking at their poop and then giving the thumbs up sign to each other!

--

Mom to Pixie, 8 year old sheltie,inherited from my mother-in-law 3/11.  Dx of EPI 9/09.  TLI in 10/09 was 0.4 ug/L.  As of 12/2/11, Folate fasting levels was 13.6 ug/L, and Cobalamin fasting was 615.   Current weight 20.9 lbs (7/13), solid member of the Chunky Monkey Club!  Ideal weight around 17, I think, but she's not obese at this weight, so maybe 17 is a little low.  Feeding grain free - Merrick 96% Pork canned and Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Lamb kibble.  Giving slightly less than 1/2 tsp Pancreatin 8X per 1/2 cup of food.  Tylan 1x/day maintenance dose.  Also takes 1/2 tablet pepcid for stomach upset 2x/day.   Getting bi-weekly B-12 shots.  Our little pack also includes my husband, our 13 year old sheltie, Lucy, and our 10 year old sheltie, Einstein. 

December 25, 2012 at 9:23 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marie
Member
Posts: 57

Hey everyone!


This is such a happy day for us. Swatt is doing sooooooo well on enzymes! With your advice we maintaines the 1.2 tbs per 1.6lbs of food (I know it a lot but that is what he was usef to) and his pood is solid and getting darker every time he passes a new one.

As I said before, our 13 years old boxer just passes last week from kidney failior and we are still hurting, Knowing what is wrong with Swat, and having the resources to help him is such a relief! Last year I decided to adopt a dog in need so that when Dug passes we could give a home to a dog that needed it.

We had no idea Swat would need us so much. 500$ later,we have a diagnosis, being a vet tech, I feel comfortable helping him, it it such a good feeling.

For the first time, he doesn't seem hungry all the time. He sleeps, he looks content.

 ordered the B12. We will put him on the recomended protocol.

Dinding this forum/website is our best xmas gift! thank you! xxxx


December 25, 2012 at 11:03 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2633

What a Joyeux Noel for you. It's great to have good news! Swat is very lucky to have you.

--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


December 25, 2012 at 11:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill
Member
Posts: 1840

We have been basically living off and on in our 29ft 5th wheel trailer for the past 2 years while trying to get a new product off the ground for our business. Our business is in Philomath, Oregon and our house is in Brinnon Washington. Anyway, due to Mickeys urate stone forming problem I have to get a first morning urine sample, and also check poop sample off and on now what with the pancreatitis. We have 25 employees who drive in right in time to see me with a babyfood jar holding it under a peeing Mickey for a sample, or out there following him around looking at or getting a poop sample. I just figure it is good stuff for lunchtime fodder!! Congratulations on the solid poop.. YYYAAAYYYY

--

 

Mickey 6/21/99 - 8/29/2014 

17.5 lb  jack russell, chronic pancreatitis, hyperuricosuria

eats hard boiled eggs, RC Hepatic, mashed potato

2 #2 Dianes enzymes 6x premeal

 2.5 mg Amlodipine, .15mg soloxine am/pm, 100mg ursodiol started for gall bladder thinning 3/24

arthritis:  6.25mg tramadol 1x/day, 12.5mg gabapentin every 12 hrs,  Assisi soft loop used on back and elbow,started Yucca Intensive 2x/day 4/29/14, 1 540meq potassium citrate nightly

Denamarin once a day, 1/16 t tylan (150mg)  2x/day 

 Senilife started 12/14/13, Trixsyn

Optimmune and Dry eyes,  

Kiya is Mickeys sister, 3/4 aussie, 1/4 blue heeler born 9/2006.  She thinks she is a 44 lb jack russell who tries to heel Mickey!!

 

 

December 25, 2012 at 11:19 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1491

It is such a good feeling isn't it!!! To have a diagnosis and a plan that is already working for Swat is a wonderful present indeed:)

 

Wishing you a safe and happy New Year!

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

December 26, 2012 at 8:41 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Cedar's Mom, Barb
Member
Posts: 1624

Salut Marie et Swat! Nous sommes canadiennes aussi, et Cedar est du Quebec (Montreal). OK that's about it for me without a lot of straining my brain. We get our B12 from Costco without a prescription and our vet supplies us our needles and syringes free of charge. Congrats on the improved poop and Swat feeling better. I'm so sorry you had to say goodbye to your other pup (what was his name?)...sweet memories to heal your grief. I lost my heartdog Toby (he was 13 too) just two weeks before Cedar was diagnosed, so understand how raw you must be feeling. You're doing so well, you know.

--

- Barb -

Mom to Cedar, diagnosed with EPI Nov 1, 2010, TLI 1.2, Feb 2013 B12 653 (150-700), Folate 23 (7-39); B12 injections weekly; 1 3/4 tsp pancreatin 8X/meal, 1 1/4 c TOTW Pacific Stream or Sierra Mountain + 1/2 c add ins (pork, salmon, sardines, haddock, egg, pumpkin are the usual), 1/3 c water, incubated x 30 minutes; 2 meals/day; current weight 75 lbs. Also has Pannus; treated with tacrolimus ointment 2 x daily each eye and gets 100 ug Vit E daily for immature cataracts. Also Mom to pupkids Bree and Griffin, and catkids Abby, Diamond and Max...and skinkid Ayden

December 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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