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Forum Home > General Discussion > New to the Forum - No Weight Gain after several months

Jill & Cora
Member
Posts: 28

This is my first post. Cora is 3 ½ years old and was diagnosed with EPI in September 2012. Cora is our son's dog and now is with us. Our son is in the Air Force and brought Cora to us in August after trying for years to help her thrive. The local vet was treating her for hip dysplasia and even though there were numerous infections, weakness, and appetite/bowel issues, didn't think to investigate EPI. From May to August, Cora lost 20 pounds. She had a particularly bad infection (bladder/kidney) in the spring. The vet put her on an antibiotic and also put her on Rimadyl for hip dysplasia which causes appetite suppression and pancreatic inflammation. By the time Cora came to us, our son was desperate for help and with deployments, knew if Cora was to live, we had to step in.

The reason I'm posting is that after several months of pretty thorough care, we think, she is not gaining weight. We have a great vet here who took her off Rimadyl and several weeks later made the diagnosis of EPI. Cora is getting stronger, muscles are growing, can run several miles now, poops are improved greatly - no longer cow patties but formed (gone from cow patties and yellow to brown and formed but not totally normal). Her personality has come back and she is quite playful and, even with all the work, she is a blessing to have with us. She is eating 2x her normal calorie allotment (2700 to 3000 calories/day). We feed her chicken, potatoes, organic liver (shredded with a food processor) and all incubated with Diane?s Enzymes 8x (½ to ¾ tsp per cup of food) . She is on a great probiotic, Tylan 2 scoops per day, B-12 injections for 6 weeks and now 2x month, Omega 3, Coconut Oil, Grapeseed Extract, Multivitamin. She weighs 66 pounds and should be 85 pounds.

Don't know what else to do and don't know if weight will eventually come on. Thanks for your help.

December 31, 2012 at 10:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

shirl
Member
Posts: 2162

Hello to you and Cora...welcome to the forum!  You've done a wonderful thing taking Cora for your son and helping her regain her health.  It certainly sounds like she has made some nice improvements since you've had her, but it sounds like there's still something not quite right for her (the poops aren't quite right and she's not gaining weight).  First, just so you know, some dogs gain weight back pretty quickly, but others do take a long time to gain back.  And if her energy level has increased and she's gaining muscle, she may just be using her calories up rather than storing it and gaining weight.

 

It sounds like you're addressing all the basics...food, enzymes, B-12 and SIBO.  So now we have to figure out which of these things is not optimal for her.  I have a few thoughts, but it's all guesswork and trial and error.  I have one question first...was there any difference in her poops when you went from weekly B12 injections to every other week?  If so, it may be an indication that she can't hold her B12 and needs to stay on weekly injections. 

 

Another possibility is that the amount of enzymes needs to be tweaked a little bit.  It seems like the dose you are currently giving should be pretty good for her, but every dog is different.  Some need just a little more enzyme than others.  And you give a range between 1/2 and 3/4 tsp...the small difference between these two amounts can make a difference.  I would probably try to stick with a consistent 3/4 tsp per cup for 3 to 4 days at least and see if it makes a difference.  An amount as small as 1/8 tsp can make a difference, especially since you're using the stronger 8x. 

 

Another possibility is that her food is not optimal for her.  Some EPI dogs don't do well with chicken.  The most important aspect of food for an EPI dog is that the fiber should be 4% or less.  I'm sure that you don't know the fiber content with her eating homemade food, but often food is the hardest peice of the puzzle to figure out.  I feed commercial dog food (I tried making food for my dogs years ago, but was not convinced that I was actually achieving a balanced diet for them, so I gave up!)  If you are willing to try a commercial food, I would suggest trying to find a food with less than 4% fiber.  Most grain-free food fall into this range, so that's a good place to start looking.  I would look for one without poultry.  There are many different choices these days.  If you want to continue feeding her homemade, I would try to figure out how much fiber she's getting from the potato (the skins have more fiber than the inside), and try a different protien than chicken.  There is information about fiber in the "FIBER in the Diet"  tab at the top of the page...you might want to take a look.

 

Another question I have for you is about the tylan.  You say you are giving her 2 scoops per day.  And how long has she been taking the tylan? 

 

I hope I haven't thrown too many possibilities at you all at once!  Good luck and let us know how things go.

 

Please thank your son for serving our country, and tell him that we will be here to help get Cora back into as good shape as we can!

 

Happy New Year!

--

Mom to Pixie, 8 year old sheltie,inherited from my mother-in-law 3/11.  Dx of EPI 9/09.  TLI in 10/09 was 0.4 ug/L.  As of 12/2/11, Folate fasting levels was 13.6 ug/L, and Cobalamin fasting was 615.   Current weight 20.9 lbs (7/13), solid member of the Chunky Monkey Club!  Ideal weight around 17, I think, but she's not obese at this weight, so maybe 17 is a little low.  Feeding grain free - Merrick 96% Pork canned and Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Lamb kibble.  Giving slightly less than 1/2 tsp Pancreatin 8X per 1/2 cup of food.  Tylan 1x/day maintenance dose.  Also takes 1/2 tablet pepcid for stomach upset 2x/day.   Getting bi-weekly B-12 shots.  Our little pack also includes my husband, our 13 year old sheltie, Lucy, and our 10 year old sheltie, Einstein. 

December 31, 2012 at 10:54 PM Flag Quote & Reply

shirl
Member
Posts: 2162

Part of my question about the tylan disappeared!  The question was how much is she getting in teaspoons?  And does she get it once a day or twice a day?

--

Mom to Pixie, 8 year old sheltie,inherited from my mother-in-law 3/11.  Dx of EPI 9/09.  TLI in 10/09 was 0.4 ug/L.  As of 12/2/11, Folate fasting levels was 13.6 ug/L, and Cobalamin fasting was 615.   Current weight 20.9 lbs (7/13), solid member of the Chunky Monkey Club!  Ideal weight around 17, I think, but she's not obese at this weight, so maybe 17 is a little low.  Feeding grain free - Merrick 96% Pork canned and Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Lamb kibble.  Giving slightly less than 1/2 tsp Pancreatin 8X per 1/2 cup of food.  Tylan 1x/day maintenance dose.  Also takes 1/2 tablet pepcid for stomach upset 2x/day.   Getting bi-weekly B-12 shots.  Our little pack also includes my husband, our 13 year old sheltie, Lucy, and our 10 year old sheltie, Einstein. 

December 31, 2012 at 11:02 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Dar
Member
Posts: 2596

Hi and welcome !! Shirl has given you food for thought!!!  EPI is alot of tweaking......she has improved... but now we just need to tweak things ...one step at a  time....Thanks for caring for Cora...it can be very frustrating...and thank you to yout son for serving his country.

--

  Dar and Kodi, From Washington state

 ' I aspire to be the person that my dog thinks I am !!'

Kodi (GSD female) , born August 19, 2010 , was diagnosed July 15, 2011 at 11 months .Lowest weight, 47 lbs, weight as of  4/27/2013  62.9 lbs. Our goal for her at this time is now 65 lbs. !!!   And she made it!! .  TLI .07 , Folate 9.4 , Cobalmin 536 .

Kodi is on Dogswell Livefree Turkey, 2  cups kibble twice a day with  3/4 teaspoons of enzymes (X 8 ) per cup,from Diane. (Also some home cooked meals)1 Trinfac-B capsule once a day. Also 1/8 t. of ground coriander, 1/16 t. of ground fennel seed and cinnamon per meal (for stomach acid and burps). Cylosporine 100 mg. every other day as needed for  allergies.

January 1, 2013 at 2:05 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Member
Posts: 5749

Hello and welcome from UK

 

i would agree with Shirl sometimes chicken isnt for our dogs mine cant tolerate it any more in any great quantity

 

I would try a commercial dog kibble if you can it might be that the recipe you are giving is just not sufficient to put weight on,although the calorie level is high these dogs struggle to digest certain things properly for the body to use it at its optimum level

 

you have done brilliantly so far and I also thank you for taking her in whilst your Son is supporting the USA

 

I think the ratio of enzymes is a little low usually its one teaspoon per cup but the others will jump in on clarification our enzymes here are different

 

also potato can be an issue if fed too much we fed a diet similar to yours and it didnt work for us

 

however saying that your report is that Cora is lively and playful 

 

I am sorry this post seems to be all over the place my laptop is a pain

 

look forward to updates

 

jeanx

--

 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

enzymes-Panzym 1 gram per meal twice daily ( 1/4 teaspoon )  plus one Lypex

B12 injection once every three weeks

one Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

one Antepsin before bedtime

alergies to beef pork chicken and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

39 kilos as of 10th June 2014

 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"

 

 


January 1, 2013 at 2:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1662

You've been given some great advice so I just add my welcome:)

 

"Tweaking syndrome" should almost be the name of EPI lol....we all have to do it and will probably continue to as our dogs get older, etc.

 

Paws and fingers crossed here for a bit of a gain at Cora's next weigh in!

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

January 1, 2013 at 8:59 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill & Cora
Member
Posts: 28

Thank you all for your support and suggestions. In answer to the questions:

1. The Tylan dose is 1/4 teaspoon twice a day (recently tried once a day then moved back to twice)

2. The enzyme is 8x so the instruction is 3/4 teaspoon on the packaging. Had tried dropping back but will go back to the 3/4 level again.

3. The potato is skinned so the total fiber she is getting per day is about 3 grams, well below the 4 % since nothing else has fiber with the possible exception of the multivitamins (given to cover nutritional needs not met through home cooking). There is no fiber information on the vitamins.

4. Will check with the vet regarding B-12 injections. Her poop seemed the same after we stopped weekly but there seemed, and I mean seemed, a slow down in weight thickening, but not energy.

5. She also gets hyaluronic acid injections every two weeks for joint health (there is xray evidence of dysplasia but little in symptoms).

6. We will try moving the enzymes back up and Tylan back to twice a day and then talk to vet re: B-12 on Friday.Then if no change, we'll move her off of chicken to a prepared diet - slow I guess is how you do that.

My Question: Do you need to grind commercial food also?

When Cora arrived she could barely stand up. She had to pull herself up with great struggle using only her front legs as she was so debilitated. She slept most of the day and we had to wake her up for bathroom breaks. Many meals were fed mouthful at a time while she laid in bed. So progress is much but we are aware of how fragile this all is with her. Thanks again.

January 1, 2013 at 10:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jean and Kara
Member
Posts: 5749

My advice is to change one thing at a time and keep a record of everything you do in a note book

 

you will need to add water to the commercial food so that you can mix in the enzymes we put hot/warm water to Karas let it cool and then add enzymes there is no need to grind it just let the enzymes sit on the food fo 20 minutes or so and feed having mixed them in

 

you really have struggled and the progress you have made is awesome

 

these dogs amaze me with their energy level it almost borders on desperation and hysteria

 

My Kara was crazy, she has settled down a lot now, but to be honest I love her the way she is with a lunatic personality

 

slow and simple is the name of the game here, if it were me I would maybe up the enzymes for say three days note everything and then tweak the Tylan and then consider the food change and even then slowly

 

the b12 well you can talk to your vet about that but it is so important that it is delivered on a regular basis

 

what is your name????

 

 

jeanx

--

 

 

Kara

 

From Liverpool England


born 21st July 2009


adopted at five months old 26th December 2009

 

EPI dx August 2010


tli<1.00 folate 8.3 cobalimin 611

Antibiotics  2 Oxytet antibiotics 3 times a day also if we cannot fit the Oxytet in she has Tylan 1/8th teaspoon before her meals as a maintenanance dose

Food- Ashenbank Lamb Casserole  twice daily equalling 3 cups per day possibly more

Zantac (ranitadine) 75 mg 30 minutes before each meal as too much acid was being produced, causing shedding of bowel lining

enzymes-Panzym 1 gram per meal twice daily ( 1/4 teaspoon )  plus one Lypex

B12 injection once every three weeks

one Chemeyes B12 with intrinsic factor of 40 daily

one Antepsin before bedtime

alergies to beef pork chicken and white fish confirmed by blood test

33.6 kilos in weight as of 5th May 2013

39 kilos as of 10th June 2014

 

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAS INVENTED BY DOGS"

 

 


January 1, 2013 at 10:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1662

Are you feeding raw or cooked chicken? What I've seemed to notice is that cooked or processed chicken can tend to be more of a problem, raw does seem to be more acceptable in many dogs?

 

I think in order for the Tylan to work effectively it has to be given 12 hours apart, 2x per day with food, for 30-45 days.

 

Also, are you giving the probiotics apart from the antiobiotics? I think they are supposed to be given 4 hours apart but someone else will pop on who knows for sure - I just know they can't be given together...

 

I would start with 3/4 tsp of enzymes per cup of food (1 tsp per cup if / when you change to kibble, but more about that when you decide) and slowly tweak up or down. As Jean said, give changes at least 3 days between adjustments.

 

Many of us supplement B12 with Wonderlabs B12 pills with instrinsic factor - $15 for 120 - it helps alleviate concerns over dropping levels. 

 

You've done a simply amazing job with Cora, paws crossed for some gain!!

 

P.S.  I have never been able to get Sofie beyond what she weighed at diagnosis (76 lbs) but she is a large breed and at 15 months still had quite a of growing to do. I have tried tweaking everything and then tweaking it again. For some reason, because what I was feeding her was a high quality kibble, I never gave thought to the chicken...

I stopped feeding Sofie chicken about a month ago and started Tylan at the same time. I get scared to say it out loud lol but I think she might have hit 80+. I have got to take her for a weigh-in to check for sure but she seems just that bit better overall - attitude, coat, interest in her food, etc...

Anyway, just thought I'd share my chicken story.

 

P.P.S. Sofie seemed to tolerate chicken fine even after she was first diagnosed. It seemed to happen over time (no idea why) but decided to give it a try after it was mentioned on here that the chicken issue can develop later....

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

January 1, 2013 at 11:40 AM Flag Quote & Reply

epi4dogs
Site Owner
Posts: 13306

Hi Cora's "grandparents" and a very warm welcome to you and Cora and thank you for caring for her while your son is serving our country... and a HUGE thank you to your son for taking care of us!!


You have been given great suggestions already....but in order to optimally manage EPI.... the right balance of the proper protocol of Enzymes, Diet, B12 & Antibiotics when needed... needs to be identified for each individual dog. It sounds like you have done a fabulous job of giving Cora her health back but maybe just a few adjustments still need to be made... as others mapped out in their posts above.


The first thing i strongly recommend that you do to help you figure what will work better for Cora is to start keeping an EPI Log....you can see a sample of one on our Download page and you can download a template of one fres from this page also:

http://www.epi4dogs.com/downloads.htm

Keeping an EPI Log will not only help you identify what works best for Cora.... it will save you from going bonkers trying to figure things out and it will also give your vet a more accurate picture of what is going on with her.


The first thing i would do is increase the enzymes slightly for 3-5 days... see if that more readily has Cora delivering better, formed poos... mark this in the journal... even take daily poo pictures to include with the journal to help you visually see if things are really improving or not or if you just "think" they are improving.... i personally drove myself nuts until i started taking pictures to confirm what i thought i saw... if that makes sense :D


... if you see a little improvement but it 's still not perfect poo..... then  i would increase the enzymes by yet another 1/8 of a teaspoon.....If you do not see any improvement from the slightly increased enzymes... then something else needs to be tweaked....


Definitely start giving the Tylan twice a day now.... this is VERY important to do twice a day and for a long enough duration...... it needs to be given for 30-45 days.... i'd go with the 45 day/twice daily regimen as this is the latest recommendation via SIBO +Tylan research.


ANother change is either increase the frequency of the B12.... or at the very least... keep a close eye on it (start testing it)..... so often when we are doing everything right, but the dog continues not to really flourish it is because the B12 levels are not holding....


And yet another thing i would look at is the food...especially if you do not see any positive changes with the above...... if that you just might need to change the food... either to a different protein, to less carbs, or a pinch more soluble fiber... the list is endless... and this is where the EPI LOG will save your sanity because the only way to figure this out, especially with the food/diet part.... is to adjust just one ingredient at a time... 3-5 days... watch the poo.... make notes in the EPI Log... and this will help you determine if the change you made is helping or not.

 

 Now..... about that weight gain..... because the poos are not 100%, to me that means something still needs to be tweaked..... BUT.......that weight gain?! Well..... even when we do find the right balance of things, and the poo is consistently good.... and the weight is not coming on  as fast as we think it should.... sometimes.... with some dogs... it takes a LONG time for the weight to come back on.... we have actually had dogs here who have taken over a year to get back to their full weight, and then we have had other EPI dogs that bounce back within just a few months..... so .... yes, Cora should gain her weight back..... but just know that some take much longer then others....but we will help you as best we can to make sure you are giving Cora the best possible "balance" of EPI treatment for Cora that she needs.... and please share everything we are suggesting to you with your vet, feel free to print anything we say or anything on this website. We try very hard to support what we say with veterinarian research and hands on experience and we also try to keep the most current research posted on this website.


Regarding grinding the commercial dog food if that is the route you decide to try....no... you do not have to grind the food..... some folks do this extra step in the very beginning.... and it does seem to help some initially.... but once they stop grinding, these "grinding dog food folks" noticed that their dogs poos are jsut as good ;)................ BUT.........what we do strongly suggest is to add enough lukewarm liquid (tap water is fine) to the kibble and enzymes and incubate for 20/+ minutes.... this allows the enzymes to be better distributed in the food AND it helps lessen the caustic properties of the enzymes and this in turn helps eliminate the possibility of your dog developing mouth sores from the enzymes.









--

Olesia, owned by Izzy-35lb SWD, Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.3, Stable almost 8 yrs! Once stable, was able to reduce enzymes to only 1/2 tsp of Enzymes with each meal, but after almost 4 years of stabilization... had to increase the amount of enzymes to 3/4 teaspoon with each meal. Feed various grain-free kibble+real meat, 6x pancreatin enzymes from EnzymeDiane. I give 1 tsp of coconut oil one day and 1 tsp salmon oil next day, and also give canned sardines packed without salt or canned herring for extra omega oils.

In Feb 2013, Izzy developed a very serious condition called IMHA which she (thankfully) beat and is now in remission. We also discovered that now, at 8+ years old, she not only has EPI, but also Diabetes, Low Thyroid and High Cholesterol.  Izzy was able to receive excellent care because of the kindness of so many here on epi4dogs and  is currently  doing extra-ordinarily well. If anyone could spend a day with Izzy, they would never guess that she has any health problems!  Because of Izzy's concurrent conditions of Diabetes and High Cholesterol we had to make changes to our daily EPI routine. We had to alter the fiber, type of fiber and the fat content her diet. She was getting Annamaet Lean kibble plus a lean meat and did well on it....... but we have since switched again because of her diabetes to an all home-made diet which she does even better on and has even been able to reduce the Vetsulin (por-based insulin) dose from 9 units to 6 units... because of the diet change to all home-made i no longer worry about hypoglycemia- -she is much more even keeled with a diet of sweet potato+ a lean meat+coconut oil/fish oil+vitamins and bone meal. We tried Novolin N a human synthetic RNA insulin.... but Izzy did not do well on it. aside from all of Izzy's health issues.... she continues to wake up every day full of joy and a great sense of humor!


January 1, 2013 at 12:29 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill & Cora
Member
Posts: 28

Tracey, Sofie's mom at January 1, 2013 at 11:40 AM

Are you feeding raw or cooked chicken? What I've seemed to notice is that cooked or processed chicken can tend to be more of a problem, raw does seem to be more acceptable in many dogs?

 

I think in order for the Tylan to work effectively it has to be given 12 hours apart, 2x per day with food, for 30-45 days.

 

Also, are you giving the probiotics apart from the antiobiotics? I think they are supposed to be given 4 hours apart but someone else will pop on who knows for sure - I just know they can't be given together...

 

I would start with 3/4 tsp of enzymes per cup of food (1 tsp per cup if / when you change to kibble, but more about that when you decide) and slowly tweak up or down. As Jean said, give changes at least 3 days between adjustments.

 

Many of us supplement B12 with Wonderlabs B12 pills with instrinsic factor - $15 for 120 - it helps alleviate concerns over dropping levels. 

 

You've done a simply amazing job with Cora, paws crossed for some gain!!

 

P.S.  I have never been able to get Sofie beyond what she weighed at diagnosis (76 lbs) but she is a large breed and at 15 months still had quite a of growing to do. I have tried tweaking everything and then tweaking it again. For some reason, because what I was feeding her was a high quality kibble, I never gave thought to the chicken...

I stopped feeding Sofie chicken about a month ago and started Tylan at the same time. I get scared to say it out loud lol but I think she might have hit 80+. I have got to take her for a weigh-in to check for sure but she seems just that bit better overall - attitude, coat, interest in her food, etc...

Anyway, just thought I'd share my chicken story.

 

P.P.S. Sofie seemed to tolerate chicken fine even after she was first diagnosed. It seemed to happen over time (no idea why) but decided to give it a try after it was mentioned on here that the chicken issue can develop later....

Cora is on cooked white meat food processed chicken - will switch to a commercial chicken free food after adjusting the other factors (antibiotics, enzyme amount...). She has been on Tylan for 2 months. I have been giving her the probiotics with the antibiotic and will change that immediately in case that is a problem. And I'll check into the B12 supplements for her. Hopefully this will make the difference for her.


And by the way, my name is Jill. And Cora has made the transition from being our son's dog to becoming ours.While the initial plan was to restore her to health and have her go back to Omaha, it's becoming clear that her care is more than will work for our son and his young family, as much as they love her. Also we live in the mountains of North Carolina so Cora is able to run and explore in the woods to her heart's content, hiking with us daily, which is strengthening her overall.

Thanks again.

January 1, 2013 at 3:26 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Jill & Cora
Member
Posts: 28

epi4dogs at January 1, 2013 at 12:29 PM

Hi Cora's "grandparents" and a very warm welcome to you and Cora and thank you for caring for her while your son is serving our country... and a HUGE thank you to your son for taking care of us!!


You have been given great suggestions already....but in order to optimally manage EPI.... the right balance of the proper protocol of Enzymes, Diet, B12 & Antibiotics when needed... needs to be identified for each individual dog. It sounds like you have done a fabulous job of giving Cora her health back but maybe just a few adjustments still need to be made... as others mapped out in their posts above.


The first thing i strongly recommend that you do to help you figure what will work better for Cora is to start keeping an EPI Log....you can see a sample of one on our Download page and you can download a template of one fres from this page also:

http://www.epi4dogs.com/downloads.htm

Keeping an EPI Log will not only help you identify what works best for Cora.... it will save you from going bonkers trying to figure things out and it will also give your vet a more accurate picture of what is going on with her.


The first thing i would do is increase the enzymes slightly for 3-5 days... see if that more readily has Cora delivering better, formed poos... mark this in the journal... even take daily poo pictures to include with the journal to help you visually see if things are really improving or not or if you just "think" they are improving.... i personally drove myself nuts until i started taking pictures to confirm what i thought i saw... if that makes sense :D


... if you see a little improvement but it 's still not perfect poo..... then  i would increase the enzymes by yet another 1/8 of a teaspoon.....If you do not see any improvement from the slightly increased enzymes... then something else needs to be tweaked....


Definitely start giving the Tylan twice a day now.... this is VERY important to do twice a day and for a long enough duration...... it needs to be given for 30-45 days.... i'd go with the 45 day/twice daily regimen as this is the latest recommendation via SIBO +Tylan research.


ANother change is either increase the frequency of the B12.... or at the very least... keep a close eye on it (start testing it)..... so often when we are doing everything right, but the dog continues not to really flourish it is because the B12 levels are not holding....


And yet another thing i would look at is the food...especially if you do not see any positive changes with the above...... if that you just might need to change the food... either to a different protein, to less carbs, or a pinch more soluble fiber... the list is endless... and this is where the EPI LOG will save your sanity because the only way to figure this out, especially with the food/diet part.... is to adjust just one ingredient at a time... 3-5 days... watch the poo.... make notes in the EPI Log... and this will help you determine if the change you made is helping or not.

 

 Now..... about that weight gain..... because the poos are not 100%, to me that means something still needs to be tweaked..... BUT.......that weight gain?! Well..... even when we do find the right balance of things, and the poo is consistently good.... and the weight is not coming on  as fast as we think it should.... sometimes.... with some dogs... it takes a LONG time for the weight to come back on.... we have actually had dogs here who have taken over a year to get back to their full weight, and then we have had other EPI dogs that bounce back within just a few months..... so .... yes, Cora should gain her weight back..... but just know that some take much longer then others....but we will help you as best we can to make sure you are giving Cora the best possible "balance" of EPI treatment for Cora that she needs.... and please share everything we are suggesting to you with your vet, feel free to print anything we say or anything on this website. We try very hard to support what we say with veterinarian research and hands on experience and we also try to keep the most current research posted on this website.


Regarding grinding the commercial dog food if that is the route you decide to try....no... you do not have to grind the food..... some folks do this extra step in the very beginning.... and it does seem to help some initially.... but once they stop grinding, these "grinding dog food folks" noticed that their dogs poos are jsut as good ;)................ BUT.........what we do strongly suggest is to add enough lukewarm liquid (tap water is fine) to the kibble and enzymes and incubate for 20/+ minutes.... this allows the enzymes to be better distributed in the food AND it helps lessen the caustic properties of the enzymes and this in turn helps eliminate the possibility of your dog developing mouth sores from the enzymes.









Thank you for the site - it is a great blessing. As to your recommendations, I have begun in December keeping a journal and my husband has a gallery of daily poop pictures on his phone. As to the Tylan, she has been on it since October twice a day - it's only in the last week that I went to one a day (the vet thought it might be time). Seems like the most important change will be getting her off of chicken/potatoes and see if that makes the difference. Not having to cook will be great, if that's what works for her. Also, testing for B12 and adding the supplements. Today's poop was the right color and formed, just a little 'wet' in parts. So I guess Cora overall will be one of the slow gainers and hopefully with all of your help, we'll get past this acute stage and see her consistently thriving. Even through all of her being sick, she is very sweet. When she doesn't want to eat, she turns from her bowl, looks me in the eye and gives me a kiss. 'Thank you so much, but I can't'. Hard journey but she makes it sweet. Thanks again.

January 1, 2013 at 3:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

shirl
Member
Posts: 2162

Cora sounds very sweet!  I just wanted to add that, if you decide to try a commercial dog food, there is a list of foods that different EPI dogs have done well on in the "Dog Food Options" tab above.  Feel free to take a look at it.  Just keep in mind that what works for one dog won't work for another, and the most important aspect is that it have 4% fiber or less. 

 

Good luck, keep us posted, and keep asking any questions that come up.

--

Mom to Pixie, 8 year old sheltie,inherited from my mother-in-law 3/11.  Dx of EPI 9/09.  TLI in 10/09 was 0.4 ug/L.  As of 12/2/11, Folate fasting levels was 13.6 ug/L, and Cobalamin fasting was 615.   Current weight 20.9 lbs (7/13), solid member of the Chunky Monkey Club!  Ideal weight around 17, I think, but she's not obese at this weight, so maybe 17 is a little low.  Feeding grain free - Merrick 96% Pork canned and Nature's Variety Instinct Limited Ingredient Lamb kibble.  Giving slightly less than 1/2 tsp Pancreatin 8X per 1/2 cup of food.  Tylan 1x/day maintenance dose.  Also takes 1/2 tablet pepcid for stomach upset 2x/day.   Getting bi-weekly B-12 shots.  Our little pack also includes my husband, our 13 year old sheltie, Lucy, and our 10 year old sheltie, Einstein. 

January 1, 2013 at 9:33 PM Flag Quote & Reply

maddie ann
Member
Posts: 3209

Hello Jill and Cora

Just picking this up from your reply :

When she doesn't want to eat, she turns from her bowl, looks me in the eye and gives me a kiss. 'Thank you so much, but I can't'. Hard journey but she makes it sweet.

This can be a result of low b12 and Sibo so i am glad you are going back to Tylan twice daily.......rather that perhaps wasting money on b12 testing i would be inclined to just go back to weekly shots for at least another 6 weeks as mentioned alot of our dogs cant hold there levels and this was a major holdback for me in maddie weight gain i still give her the pills Tracey has mentioned daily and she has gined all of her weight back and a little more and has now maintained this for over a year.The tylan should also be adminstered with food it is bitter so alot of people disguise this.

Food- i notice that you are considering a change to kibble finding the right one can be difficult eventually i found the right combination for maddie but it is finding the right one for your dog so as mentioned below 4 % fibre but fat need not be restricted . it may be worth just getting a few smaller bags to find one that suits.

The other thing to note is that we feed our dogs 150% of the food for the weight we want our dogs to be  but we do this over smaller meals so intially we start with 3 or 4 meals a day........i cant determine wether you are doing this from your thread also i used pro-botics and i use to add these to maddie lunch when she was on antibotics as well.........also again finding the right pro-botic can be another part of the puzzle..

It sounds like Cora has a wonderful life .

--

 ANN (UK)

 “Saving one dog will not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever.”

Maddie DOB 01-10-2007 she is now  7 DX 04/11 .B12 140 now 644 TLI <1.00 Folate 14.2.

After 15 months on the B12 tablets with the intrisic factor she was retested and her b12 is now 902.

Weight was 22.3kg now 33.2kg (04-05-12) she is a small GSDbut she gained .(24lbs)

Feed a mixture of foods she does better on fibre 3% and below she has  b12 tablets daily (imported from the USAhttp://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=6881) now changing to the uk version from http://www.chemeyes.co.uk/

organic virgin  coconut oil dailly. Use Panzym 1/4 a tsp per 200 grams of food .Got SIBO under control after antibiotics ( stormormgyl) used synbotic by protexin. a pre-probotic also given daily.

January 2, 2013 at 5:54 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1662

I am so glad that you and your husband have been able to be there for Cora and help ease your son's mind while he's off doing important work for his country!

 

I really look forward to hearing some good news on Cora's weight soon - I'm sure with some tweaking you'll start to see some improvement:) Sofie is a slow gainer too, sometimes it almost drives me nuts when you hear from people on here whose dog gains back all his/her weight in a month lol:)

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

January 2, 2013 at 9:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tracey, Sofie's mom
Member
Posts: 1662

Jill, Cora probably does still have SIBO. If you've been giving the pro (for) and anti (against) biotics at the same time they have most likely been negating each other. If I were you I would keep it simple for now and just eliminate the probiotics. It can be hard to figure out what needs tweaking when you get to this stage - do you need more enzymes, is B12 low, is SIBO still in play - so the simpler you can keep it the better.

 

And it sounds like Cora got really sick so it might take her a bit of time to heal and have enough energy to put into putting on weight. Sofie has been a really slow gainer, and in looking at pictures many dogs seem to continue to look a bit lean but lead full, happy, otherwise healthy lives:)

 

You've done so marvelous, I'm sure you're just a bit of tweaking away!

--

Tracey, Sofie's mom

Sofie, Shiloh shepherd, born March 2010; diagnosed April 2011. Currently eats 3.5 cups of TOTW Lamb per day plus a bit of cooked beef, pork, tripe or liver, etc. with 1 tsp. of 8x enzymes per cup. 1 Wonderlabs B12 pill per day, 1 tbsp coconut oil 2x a day and currently back on Tylan 2x a day. Her lowest weight was 66 lbs, she is now a lovely 85 lbs.

January 2, 2013 at 5:07 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Marilyn Marinelli
Member
Posts: 497

Hi Jill,   You are a blessing to Cora what an awesome job of love and care you have and still are giving.   You have been getting some great help and suggestions.  I know you are concerned about her weight gain ....one thing it seems no one addressed was that you said she goes hicking with you for several miles.  Right there it may be that she is working off some of her calories. (what do they say when we need to lose weight don't eat a tremendous amount but also walk of those extra calories blah blah blah) You see what I am saying maybe one of the reasons the weight is not coming on as quickly is because she is walking it off.

My dog loves to run all over the yard everyday chasing squirrals and has gained weight slowly but stays slim she is in the right range for her breed.   

 I have my dog on B12 with instrinsic factor and give her one capsule twice a day. Her B12 has been tested several times and her B12 just stays right up there (no shots)... She also eats Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato which seems to work well for her (I add a little chopmeat boiled to her meals as well that is where I put the B12 capsule in the middle of and she gobbles it down). 

When my dog was having so many problems before being diagnosed with EPI she couldn't handle chicken...so that is why I don't give her any dog food with chicken in it.    As I said to begin with you are doing a terrific job with Cora and she has come a long way...... I rejoice with you on her health coming back to her. Hope some of what I shared with you helps.

 

 

--

Ruby doo bee lol  was diagnosed with EPI in June 2011. Lost 20 lbs  before told about the TLI from the vet.  Was diagnosed with  EPI test result was 2.0. No other tests given.  Gained back 6 lbs.   Finally, *8/11 had B12/Folate test taken ..(Vet delayed it) B12 is 216. Shots will start Monday. Not on shots anymore instead we use Wonderland B12 with intrinsic factor twice a day with each meal. Her B12 was tested and she is in a very safe range high.  Gained weight, she now 53 lbs.  

Was on powder enzyems 1 tsp per 1 cup of food. Did well. I was allergic to powder and she started to not eat and bleed from the mounth and had other problems showing up.  Switched to tablets (didn't work).  Now on Creon Capsule 1capsule 24,000 units per 2 cups of food. Feeding 4 cups per day.  Natural Blance Venison and Sweet Potato plus a little lean boiled chopmeat. 

Also started her and trying probiotics 1/18 of a teaspoon every other day. Seems to be working fine.

January 2, 2013 at 6:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paula
Member
Posts: 2634

Hi, Jill - I was just re-reading your initial post. When Maya was diagnosed, she was 2 months shy of 4 years old. At her best, she weight about 62 lbs. When EPI hit, she went down to 52. Quickly back up to 62, but then held there until I really got her SIBO under control and got her B12 squared away. She has always been super active (sounds a lot like Cora). Now she's at 75 lbs and looks perfect. But it took until maybe 9 months ago (I should pull out her weight records from weigh-ins at the vet) to get there. You'll get there, too. Maybe it's our mountain air (though I think yours is "purer" than mine way up where you live in those "boondocks"!

 

--

Paula and Maya (bday 12/21/06) (diagnosed 10/26/10 TLI 1.5, B12 659 (ref:249-733), weight 52 lbs. After 30 days, retested B12/folate - B12 plummeted to 200, which greatly affected her personality. After following B12 protocol, currently giving semi-weekly B12 shots at home, plus daily WonderLabs Trinfac. Weight in July 2013: 75 lbs - the picture of health


January 2, 2013 at 7:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Miss Lulupants
Administrator
Posts: 2196

Bit late to be of practical use at the moment but a warm welcome is always useful - so welcome! :D

--

Craig

Lulu (aka Miss Lulupants) is a 6.5 year old 'Red Shepherd' (Australian Red Heeler x Long-hair GSD) who lives on the Fleurieu Peninsula, South Australia. Diagnosed with EPI in April 2010. Currently on one Creon 25k per meal; 2 cups Taste of the Wild High Prairie Canine Formula kibble per day (over two meals) + one Wonderlabs Trinfac every so often. Click here for diet/med details. Miss Lulupants' story has been archived but it starts here. Lulu currently weighs: 21.5kg (47.4 pounds). Is probably a Chunky Monkey again too :P Lulu is super-smart, a bit plump and very pretty (everybody says so - including her!).


January 4, 2013 at 3:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Val
Member
Posts: 2340

You had some great advise so just... welcome to the family. Thank you for looking after Cora while your son serves his country.... I also have a grandson in Afghanistan so understand how things feel.

The big area will have a an effect on weight gain as my Razzy had fields and we took her hiking through local woods once she could walk any length again. She was a big girl and couldn't walk across the yard without lying down but once stable she took a year to get the first 2kg on her back. Then she went from good to better and enjoyed four and half years of being disgustingly healthy.

You have a big family here who live with EPI daily and they are the best in the world to give you help and encouragment. 


Val

--

Razzy, GSD.

EPI for 4 1/2 years... sadly lost to cancer 30th July 2011 aged 9 1/2 years.

January 4, 2013 at 5:56 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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