5 month old we need help

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
cindi
Member
Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Country: United States
State: Oregon
Pet name: duke
My name: cindi

5 month old we need help

Post by cindi » 06 Sep 2021, 03:16

I am so very thankful I found this group. Duke our GSD just turned 5 months.We have been back and forth to the vet. The vet said he is to young to test for EPI. The diarrhea and toots while pooping. poor guy cant make it outside at times.Duke has been treated with flagyl both times.This time after day 3 he started back to gas and mushy poop.It can get so bad that we are up all night with watery diarrhea. The probiotic in a tube they prescribed isnt working well.I do his meals spaced out to try and help the diarrhea. The vet is calling it upper GI issues. I told the vet something is wrong as his weight is low and he lost weight in 1 month not gain. We tried purina pro plan large breed salmon and rice for puppies. Duke couldnt handle it.Now I am at a loss of what to feed him.What is recommended for feeding him since hes a pup? I am abit overwhelmed by all the reading on what to do. Until we can find a vet who can help us I was going to order some enzymesdiane to see if that helps.Duke came to us at 8 weeks a poop eater and loves to eat his poop if given the opportunity. no parasites in his poop or gardia. Should I also do an pro and pre biotic for Duke? I want to order things for Duke but am seeking everyone advice so i can start in the right direction. This poor guy is just starving.. when outside hes constantly sniffing for food..My other GSD is fine..Thank you all for your time.. Hopefully I can find my way back to this topic.lol. very new at all of this..

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jilbert57
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Posts: 1317
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by jilbert57 » 06 Sep 2021, 08:54

Hi Cindi. Welcome to you and Duke. I haven't heard that an animal is too young to test for Epi.
It is a 8-10 hour food fasted blood test. I would ask your vet again to please run the Tli test and also test for folate and B12. Print off any information from the website and have your vet read them.
If it turns out to be Epi there are 4 cornerstones:
ENZYMES-Not plant based but porcine must be put on and incubated with water on all food eaten.
DIET- recommended grain free, 4% fiber or less. Please keep away from peas, pea fiber, pea flour, legumes .
ANTIBIOTIC-All dogs have SID/SIBO when diagnosed. It is recognized by acid reflux, gas, bile vomiting, sour tummy, etc... Tylan is the Antibiotic of choice. It keeps good bacteria and gets rid of bad.
B12-B12 must be in the high range, 500 and higher. Excess is excreted in the urine.

Here is a link to food options. Taste of the Wild Pacific Strean and Sport Dog Herding Elite are popular. Check if they can be fed to puppies.

https://epi4dogs.com/dog-food-options/

https://epi4dogs.com/epi-quick-guide-usa/

https://epi4dogs.com/possible-alternati ... tibiotics/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Michaela
Member
Posts: 81
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Nikki
My name: Michaela

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Michaela » 06 Sep 2021, 11:00

Hi Cindi,

what Duke is dealing with is obviously not normal. If your vet can't figure out what is going on, maybe it's time for a second opinion. Trying Diane's enzymes is a good idea and they won't interfere with testing.

The symptoms you describe sure point to EPI, I would have him tested for sure (TLi & B12). It's a simple blood test and if your vet isn't on board, make an appointment with a different vet. Make sure you read the instructions for the testing below.

https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/tli/
https://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/b12folate/
https://epi4dogs.com/tli-universal-testing/

While you're waiting on the enzymes from Diane, you can buy some emergency enzymes at a health food store.
https://epi4dogs.com/emergency-enzymes/

Michaela
Nikki was diagnosed with EPI in 2010
Royal Canin Gastrointestinal Low Fat canned
Slippery Elm syrup for stomach issues
1 tsp Pan-Tenex enzymes with each meal
Weekly B12 shots, pills didn't work for her
Tylan for life


"If there ever comes a day when we can't be together, keep me in your heart, I'll stay there forever."

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 821
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Sep 2021, 13:58

Hey Cindi. I feel for you, but you have come to the right place. Welcome and please feel free to post any questions you have. Stabilizing can take some tweaking.

I agree with getting the blood test done, considering your description of symptoms. Heads up, it's a few hundred dollars, and you must fast your puppy from all but water for 12 hours ahead of the blood draw. Your vet should test for B12 & folate , as well as EPI. If you are willing to pay for the test, why wouldn't they run it for you? Sometimes we need to insist, for our peace of mind. If it's not EPI, then you'll know.

If you want, you can make him some meat & add some canned pumpkin until you find the right puppy food. I'd use turkey, though some EPI dogs don't do well on poultry. You could also try lamb. Sport Dog Elite is a good brand of dog food. Here's their puppy kibble, but I can't figure out the fiber count https://www.sportdogfood.com/products/cub-puppy#qa . Fiber is supposed to be less than 4%.

Flagyl is metrodinazole, which is a very harsh antibiotic. Yes, to SLOWLY introducing Proviable probiotic(Amazon). And don't accept any more metro, ask for Tylan if thy want to give an antibiotic for the diarrhea. You can also order slippery elm powder from Amazon. I have had good luck with Wonderlabs & NOW brands of slippery elm. I skimmed the page & nothing jumped out about not giving it to puppies. https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/

And, lastly, FYI, two different vets let me put Tucker on enzymes, two years before he was ever tested. He was all the way stabilized before I ever had the test run, BUT i was working with a supportive vet who knew to prescribe Tylan for the SID.

And, Tucker was a skinny little poop eater for a few years before I even knew there was a real problem. I, personally, see nothing wrong with getting on this right away by ordering a sample bag of 6X enzymes from Diane. If there is no EPI, you would naturally stop the enzyme use.

Keep us posted, and hang in there---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

cindi
Member
Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Country: United States
State: Oregon
Pet name: duke
My name: cindi

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by cindi » 06 Sep 2021, 15:59

Thank you!I appreciate your help..I am going into the vet tomorrow with printed info to advocate for my pup and get him tested. See about tylan.poor guy and his poop.Our vet didnt want to as hes young and pups like to eat everything.I know in my heart that this isnt the case. How do you schedule after the enzymes when to give your pup proviable probiotic and slippery elm powder? I would feel bad to cause more issues.The vet had prescribed the tube endurosyn digestive health probiotic oral gel.Couldnt recall the name last night. I understand how costly the test is. It will save so much money getting him tested and knowing..Good start to helping him.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 821
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Sep 2021, 17:15

Sorry, I forgot you already had a good probiotic. I'm sure that's fine, but if you didn't introduce it gradually, giving less than prescribed at first, that probably added to his diarrhea. You have to build up to the full dose over a few days.

You can give enzymes, tylan, & slippery elm, all at once, mixed with the food & some liquid. When you get the enzymes, just ask us for more specific directions. It's an ordeal, but you get used to it. If it is EPI, you will also need to give B12.

If you think they will draw the blood tomorrow(you do want this done on a Mon or Tues), you should fast him for twelve hours, like I said. I had trouble getting a vet to run it for me, which I never understood. I hope yours will humor you, so you will know---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

cindi
Member
Posts: 3
Location: Oregon
Country: United States
State: Oregon
Pet name: duke
My name: cindi

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by cindi » 06 Sep 2021, 17:24

I ordered the sport elite dog food it says all stages of life. The probiotic the vet gave is 5 grams 2x a day.We started this the 30th along with flagyl. It will take time to get an appointment with the vet.I need to re weigh Duke and figure go in with some info so we can hopefully get the test scheduled. My humor is I wonder what my neighbors think of us.lol. Out late at night with a flashlight and bag and shovel to get the liquid poop after he goes.lol.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 821
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 07 Sep 2021, 12:25

Cindi, I am sorry I didn't say this, but I've always given probiotic at the same time as everything else. BUT, I'm not positive this is ideal. Also, are you still giving the flagyl?

As soon as I start writing, I realize I can't go back and read, so sorry if this is repetitive. https://epi4dogs.com/antibiotics/

And this one is probably just for you https://ivcjournal.com/metronidazole-ve ... -medicine/

Let us know what happens!---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Jean
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Posts: 1351
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Jean » 08 Sep 2021, 11:11

a probiotic should be given a few hours before or after antibiotics

so say a meal with antibiotic 8.00 am, a probiotic say 2.00, or 3.00 pm and an evening meal with an antibiotic at say 7.00 pm, just work round those sort of times, try Tylan as against Metro/ Flagyl it has side effects
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 821
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 5 month old we need help

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 27 Sep 2021, 18:59

Hi Cindy---How is Duke? --- Pam & Tucker
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon twice/day (to hold SID at bay). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, has gone from 60 to 80 pounds, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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