New here - meet Johnny!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
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Posts: 3859
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Jan 2021, 21:11

Hi Mackensie and Mr. Cutie Johnny!

I too agree to start with 1 level tsp of enzymes per 1 cup of food.... HOWEVER.....if the poos go dramatically south, then go back to using more enzymes, BUT maybe try 1+1/2 tsp per 1 cup of food. As a general rule we suggest starting with just 1 tsp and as Jill and Madelon stated, sometimes too much enzymes can also trigger loose stools.... but on the flip side, every so often a dog comes along that needs a wee bit more than the std 1 tsp enzymes per cup of dry food. SOOOOOOooooooo try reducing the enzymes see if that works and you might find that he is more interested in eating too.

THe other thing is some dogs just don't like the taste of the enzymes... they will get used to it, but in the meantime, you can let it incubate a little longer (maybe 5 or 10 more minutes) of your can try adding a tablespoon or more of water to the food.... or you can try adding toppers to camouflage the taste of the enzymes.... something stinky to us but yummy to a dog.. SOmetimes a tsp of canned cat food, or a little BBQ sauce added, or sprinkle some parmesan cheese in the kibble, or add some sardines.....etc.

As mentioned above.... the food may not be optimal for Johnny..... a lot of peas/lentils in a food can often encourage SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) to get further out of control. SO.... you might want to try a food with just a small amount of peas/lentils in it.... i personally used to feed SPORT ELITE https://www.sportdogfood.com/products/sporting-dog ... but i would order it from Chewy. SOme folks found a results with Taste of the Wild-Pacific Stream. Unfortunately what works for one EPI dog is no guarantee that it will work for the next EPI dog..... you just have to "try" different foods.... so we suggest buying the smallest bag possible until you find one that works :)

It take a while for EPI dogs to really start feeling good once the start receiving the proper EPI treatment and everything is addressed. Unfortunately EPI take a long time to happen and we don't even know something is wrong until 85-95% of the pancreas is atrophied. BUT the good new is once their body is replenished, in time, they will be as good or better than what they were long before you noticed they were sick. It just takes time. To put it in perspective, and EPI dog, once their EPI is well managed can do anything any other dog can do AND they live just as long :)

If you have not already, i would start JOhnny a prebiotic. Tyr SLippery ELm powder first , if that helps but not enough, then i would introduce a probiotic At the moment, the probiotic of choice is Proviable. WHen starting a probtiotic, start with less than 1/2 the dose recommended and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two.
If you STILL do not see any great improvement within weeks... then i would talk to the vet about prescribing a course of Tylan/Tylosin Tartrate (45 days/twice daily with food). Do NOT allow your vet to prescribe Metronidazole....new research came out this fall where they are advising against Metro for chronic gastrointestinal issues like SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which is something ALL dogs with EPI have and our objective (until we know more) is to do our best to keep it under good control.

Hope this helps. and please aks any other questions you may have.... and keep us posted of Mr. CUtie!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Johnnycake
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Johnny
My name: MacKenzie

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Johnnycake » 07 Jan 2021, 20:33

I've got great news! We've had almost entirely solid poop these past few days. I think lowering the enzyme dosage really, really helped - thank you guys so much for the suggestion!

Mixing it in with tastier things has also helped and he's gone back to eating normally again. If the poops are much better, and he's not currently showings signs of SID (like super stinky poop or a lot of gas), are those good signs?

Since he's doing better I was thinking of finishing out this bag of food, then switching when we're out so I can do a little more research beforehand. I have B12 and pre/probiotics on the way also - he's been taking pre and probiotics already but I wanted to switch to the type that was recommended here. I'm just nervous about changing too many things at once, I guess.

We did go on a hike yesterday and he had a blast - lots of energy and he even ran around and played with me a bit!

Thank you guys again for your help - I feel like every time he has a bad poop, or doesn't eat all his food, or is too tired to go out and walk, I'm failing him in some way. So I really appreciate all the support!

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3859
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Olesia711 » 07 Jan 2021, 23:01

WAHOO!!!!! great news! So glad to hear that Johnny appears to be doing better on the lesser dose..... that may have been the inappetence and not so great stool issue all along... or not.... you just have to give it time and observe :) (this is what we all do with EPI....)

Regarding the food..... although what you are using right now has peas/lentils in it..... since the lessening of the enzymes appears to have made things better... don't change the food just yet.....give it a few weeks to see what happens... IF the poos remain great ... then there is no need to change food.... UNLESS..... you like variety. There are those of us who prefer a steady same diet, and then there are those of us that believe in variety. i personally believe in the variety (once a dog is stable).... except when my dog became a diabetic, that changed everything for us and i HAD to feed the same food same volume all the day... it was a bummer.

ANYWAY..... as you area already aware of.... only make one change at a time and give it time between the changes :)
Trying a different probiotic eventually is usually a good thing... introduce different bugs (good bacteria)... when you are ready to do this just be sure to start with less than 1/2 the recommended dose and work your way up to a full dose over the course of a week or two. At this point... it does not appear that you will need the antibiotic Tylan (which is always good if you don't need to use an antibiotic).

Love the picture of Johnny.... he sure looks good and looks like he is enjoying himself :)
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Johnnycake
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Johnny
My name: MacKenzie

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Johnnycake » 09 Jan 2021, 14:00

A “fun” update on Johnny from our walk this morning... I think this was the first time I’d walked him before giving him breakfast but I wanted to try incubating his food for a little longer. He’s real well-behaved on walks usually, but he kept trying to take shortcuts to get back home sooner. Halfway through the walk, I had to pull a dead, dried up baby bird out of Mr. Starving’s mouth... ew! :oops:

Not that I can blame him, but I’m looking forward to the day when he doesn’t feel like he’s starving all the time. He tries to eat everything at home sometimes too - I’ve had to get creative with feeding the cats where he can’t reach their food! Mostly it just makes me feel bad for him, haha.

Two more questions that have come up:

1.) A couple times since starting the EnzymeDiane, he’s puked up no food, but just some slimy white stuff. Does this happen with enzymes sometimes?

2.) Yesterday he still had better poop, but I noticed with a couple of the squishier ones he was pooping out whole pieces of kibble. A sign the food’s not agreeing with him, or that he’s eating too fast, I need to incubate longer, or what? I do usually use slow feeder bowls or kongs and I hadn’t yesterday, so wasn’t sure if he was just eating too fast, or if I’m missing something EPI-related.

Thank you guys so much! I feel like I’m asking really obvious questions I should already know the answer to, haha - sorry!!!

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 09 Jan 2021, 14:40

When Tucker's poo gets squishy, I know he's having a SID flare-up, and I increase the dose of Tylan for a few weeks, but you're not having to use that yet! Where I'm at now, I think if the squish continued, I'd add slippery elm. I could be wrong, though, so look back for a message from someone who is on staff. Tucker eats his marinated kibble really fast, and I never see whole pieces in his poo.

Johnny, little stinker, trying to sneak a baby bird appetizer in before breakfast! He is so stinkin' cute!!!!---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Madelon » 09 Jan 2021, 17:21

Awwww love the pictures with the updates - thank you - it's one of the things i love most about this group - seeing all the different gorgeous EPI pets :)

With regard to the throwing up foamy stuff - that's usually excess bile/empty stomach - if it happens in the mornings then give him a late night enzymed meal before bed. If it's occurring at other times, then you might want to talk to your vet about trying Omeprazole - it's an antacid. I give my boy one 30 minutes before his morning and evening meal.

With regard to the poop. First thing I would do is our carrot trick to find out what Johnny's transition time is. Cut up a piece of carrot and put it in his food for one feeding - mark down the date and time - then look for the carrot in the poop - they don't digest it - it could be anywhere from 12-72 hours. This will tell you his transition time and help you figure out when he has a bad poo which meal it came from. The off poo you're talking about could be from the dead bird he tried to eat or just from walking. In any event, I don't stress over a bad poop every now and then - we all have our off days LOL LOL. However, if it continues then you might need to add slippery elm bark powder or a course of Tylan antibiotic.

You are doing an amazing job with Johnny and he looks like he's living his best life ever.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Barb » 09 Jan 2021, 17:42

What a great update! And what a love! Johnny looks wonderful. You are doing a terrific job with him.

I love how smart they are.....he was taking shortcuts home to his breakfast. Smart boy. Love it.

Barb

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Johnnycake
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Posts: 51
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Johnny
My name: MacKenzie

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Johnnycake » 14 Jan 2021, 10:06

I’ve been making sure to feed him his last meal closer to bedtime and that has helped with the throwing up, thank you so much!

I feel like there’s still some small issues here and there (like he’s starting to have stinky gas sometimes so I think I need to ask the vet about an antibiotic for SID), but trying to also focus on how much progress he’s made!

He goes in to the vet soon to get his B12 tested and we’ll also see exactly what weight he’s at then, but he’s definitely coming along! These pictures show the difference in the last 2.5 weeks. Thank you guys for all your help and support!
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Jean
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Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by Jean » 14 Jan 2021, 11:39

I just LOVE the pictures of what looks like a happy naughty dog

and the difference in his body is brilliant

Try to get Tylan from the vet, its better than any of the others, try to avoid Metronadazole it has side effects

let us know
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

EveMK1968
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Posts: 1
Country: United States
State: New York
Pet name: Izzie
My name: Eve

Re: New here - meet Johnny!

Post by EveMK1968 » 14 Jan 2021, 13:31

Thanks for supporting rescue dogs! I have a 13 year old rescue, Izzie who was not clinically diagnosed with EPI. Around 10-11 years old she presented with tons of gas, diarrhea and throwing up sometimes. But most importantly was losing weight no matter what I fed her- including hydrolyzed food.

After reading about EPI, I got an at home test for food sensitivity which cost maybe $100 - mail in a saliva and hair sample (there may be cheaper ones - some people will say they aren't accurate but I wanted to see the results anyway.). The results came back that Izzie was "insensitive" to chicken, some fish, corn, eggs, certain grains like barley and a lot of ingredients in dog foods). So
I then looked for dog foods with limited ingredients to avoid those sensitivities--they are really expensive especially for a dog her size. So I figured I could make her food for close to the same price or less. For the last couple of years she has been eating turkey (85% lean which runs $8 for a pound) rice, and a mix combining 4 cans of canned carrots, peas and potatoes (50 cents a can at Wal-Mart). I only make enough for 5 days or so and often freeze bags of it.

I buy the large 2 lb container of Thomas Labs Porcine Enzymes on Amazon which is expensive ($180) but lasts me for a couple of months now because I am using less enzymes then when I started. Maybe a scoop and 1/2 twice a day on her food and she eats 3 cups 2x a day.

She gained weight and has way less gas- I think that is because I feed her that limited diet.

Good luck!

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