New and going to the vet on Wed

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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jilbert57
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Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by jilbert57 » 04 Jun 2021, 19:03

Are you supplementing the B12?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Jane&Clyde
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Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Jane&Clyde » 04 Jun 2021, 22:17

Yes, I've been giving Clyde the Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 since early January. Prior to supplementation, Clyde wasn't gaining any weight and had a very low energy level. About 3-4 weeks after starting the B12, Clyde began slow but steady growth in both areas. Although I never saw him at his "normal" weight and activity level because I adopted him when he was emaciated, he seems like he is back to what I would consider an appropriate weight and energy level. It's only been since Clyde feels better and has more energy that the problems between the two dogs have started.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1346
Country: United States
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Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 05 Jun 2021, 14:36

Nobody's gonna like this, but I believe when a child does something dangerous & won't listen to "STOP!", they deserve a swat on the behind. I think dogs are the same. I hope this is helpful, rather than depressing---

Tucker first started bullying my 20-pound shelter dog when the nextdoor neighbor got a pitbull, and the dogs would go at it through the privacy fence. In frustration, 80 pound Tucker would turn on Sawyer, and it was very unfair. The first time it happened, I screamed, then instinctively took off one of my skechers & swatted Tuck till he let go, screaming the entire time with a scary voice I never knew I had. I thought he was going to kill the little guy.

Since then, it has happened a few more times, and I have reacted the same way. Fortunately, I almost always wear slip-on skechers, and the soles are soft rubber. I do believe this may have saved Sawyer's life at least twice. NOW, though, all I have to do is say Tucker's name in my scary voice, and it stops him in his tracks. They are never together while we are away from home.

Having an animal that can inflict harm on another, or on a person, is a big responsibility, and you don't always have time to go with the most correct option. Rather, you have to do what works. I have also heard that if you grab one of the dogs' two back legs & pull them off the ground, they will stop, but I'm not sure what you're supposed to do if they are both fighting.

Another thing to think about is, if they are wearing collars there is a possibility that a paw could get stuck in one of them, and choking could occur. It sounds like the fighting only happens when you are home, and I'm sure you separate them when you are not.

Many of us have reported that our EPI dogs are high-anxiety, and I'd have to say Tucker's has gotten worse, as he has gotten older, which coincides with getting the EPI under control. He used to be hungry all the time, and now that he's not, well, his behavior has maybe become habitual, and he's much stronger, too.

I wish you luck. My husband once suggested we might not get to keep Tucker, if this continued, but that was never going to happen. We have just tried to anticipate what might happen, and avoid those scenarios.

---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Olesia711 » 05 Jun 2021, 21:17

Hi Jane,

What you are describing sounds very much like "canine displaced aggressions" something i had to deal with one of my dogs..... its a frustration thing. I dealt with it with one of my two females... who BTW were very jealous of each other... but one responded with displaced aggression. (sigh!)

ANYWAY...... start reading on the internet how to teach your dog to be CALM or how to SETTLE. Make a big happy rewarding game of it.
here is one article on it... but there are tons of article and video's on YouTube.
https://www.battersea.org.uk/pet-advice ... nd-relaxed

For your situation.... you might want to practice putting both dog in a down on a certain blanket/pillow but call it "SETTLE" and reward them.
Leave the room, call them both by name and ask them to "SETTLE" on another like blanket/pillow ... when go to it, reward them... when they lay down an it reward them even more with happy voice, etc., Continue to do this every few hours just once or twice until they get the hang of it and then do it a few times every day.... the premise is that you should eventually be able to call to them any time and ask them to "SETTLE" which in short supposedly redirects and takes away their frustration .

THere are other ways to handle this..... but for me, redirecting always worked beset.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Jun 2021, 06:39

Jane---

I want to reiterate that my reaction was automatic each time I reacted, and inflicted only because I thought Tucker was going to kill my little guy. It's scary, when two dogs go at it.

That said, I agree with Olesia's method. Positive reinforcement is always, always preferable.

My problem with Tucker has been that he doesn't give the other dog a chance to submit. He just keeps attacking, through all the yelping, and I have just had to get him to stop.

When I related this to children, I was envisioning my daughter calling to my grandson to stop as he runs into the road, and saying simply "you have to listen to me", when she catches up to him. He thinks it's a game, and this terrifies me.

I am in no way a proponent of dominance theory, and I just wanted to make that clear.

----Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Jun 2021, 10:38

thanks for clarifying that...... unfortunately with any kind of harsh correction.... you just don't know from one dog to the next... how a correction will be stored in that dog's mind. WAYYYyyyyy too many times..... (my thought is that) some of these dog will will store that adverse correction and act out at some time in the future. It takes a LOT of work, and you have to be consistent to change a bad / dangerous embedded behavior in a dog.... and oh my......i certainly have made training mistakes with some of my dogs from my past.

But... what i have learned though is sometimes, with these bad learned behaviors, like the dangerous ones... is that when you are trying to train them, and are just not there yet, and they get into a bad acting "frenzy" ...... they are in a zone and they just do not hear you. What i was taught that worked geat for me without adverse physical correction and without leaving ill effects (to break thru that "frenzy zone" that they get into) is to break that "zone" by blowing an air horn (and say "air horn" when you blow the air horn) ....... and then immediately segue into the positive training steps you are working on to try and correct the behavior.............

this technique helped me personally get over that temporary "frenzy" block where they just don't hear you..... and allowed me to continue to work on the positive training ... and then i still had to periodically reinforce that positive training , even though by then the dogs knew the drill.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 06 Jun 2021, 19:44

I have heard about the air horn, too. Thanks for the reminder.

I would bet banging on a pan with a spoon would be a good substitute, if an air horn wasn't available.

"Frenzy" is a perfect word for what has happened here. Like I said, though, at this point all I have to do is say his name in that horror movie voice that came out of nowhere, and he stops.

Good to be reminded to be positive! Thank you.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Olesia711 » 06 Jun 2021, 22:38

good idea... i bet that might work too (banging on a pot) if you can make it loud enough..... ANYthing to break that damn zone they get into.

Unfortunately is is easy to give suggestions on what to do, and many of the suggestions do work, BUT what i found most hard is to consistently continue with the positive redirecting training for years...... sometimes it is too easy to let things slide one you think you have the problem fixed.... but then is you don't refresh/repeat..... you find yourself back at square one........................
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Jean » 07 Jun 2021, 04:33

this is so hard and I have looked at this and the responses over the weekend

My Kara was very reactive with other dogs, and had to be exercised on a retractable lead, she could be with a couple of dogs, but very few

I am not a fan of punishment, and here in UK you could find yourself in trouble with the law

what is he like if you take him out with other dogs around, say for example a dog park, this is likely a big dog given his breeding, and so difficult, my Kara was 90 pounds and we had her on a head collar all of the time when we were out

this could also be pain somewhere, Kara had liver issues

we gave her SAM E and Milk thistle, the one thing is to look at food, some foods are inappropriate for liver issues

one thing we tried and it helped was

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/vale ... es-it-work

the other thing is fun training, we used a set of metal discs which we threw on the ground , this stops their train of thought, and the " head of steam" when they lose the plot

something like this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trixie-Activit ... 252&sr=8-6

you could also use old keys threaded

we also used this

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/about-us/p ... ethods.pdf

you have the remote with you so dont have to approach the dog, it worked for us, it just sprays either plain air into their face, or Citronella , and stops their thought process

we always used a soft muzzle when she was out and about, and a squeaky toy

Training is all very well, but you need to get to why this is happening, we never did, and it cost a lot of money until I sacked the trainers for arguing over how to deal with her

I rather think Kara had severe pain which got worse as she got older ,and she was scared of other dogs hurting her, trouble is they never show you


Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 07 Jun 2021, 14:45

Well, this all started out with Jane talking about Clyde, and I didn't mean to hijack the conversation to Tucker's issues. She hasn't responded, so I hope she is doing well.

I don't know how big her dogs are, or how vicious they get, but when she mentioned the possibility of having to rehome Clyde, I kicked in with what has happened at our house.

In the US, you are not supposed to hit a dog, and I don't do that, except as I said, in a sudden, urgent, reactive attempt to keep another from being mauled. One time, I did manage to get both Tucker's hind legs off the ground, but it didn't stop him.

I would never take him to a dog park; I can barely get him into the car when I have to take him somewhere, and he will not, will not, go for a walk. We DO throw the ball 50 times a day, which is good exercise, and now that I'm saying that----I have recently realized that, when he is afraid to go out because it is sprinkling, if I let him keep a tennis ball in his mouth, he can do it. It's his pacifier. If he didn't eat them, I'd always let him carry one around.

I love my little Sawyer so much. He's a Jack Russell Sheltie, and the dearest little thing you've ever met. I kept seeing him on the shoulder to a busy highway, and one day I just scooped him up & took him to the shelter, hoping his family would keep better tabs, once they got him back. He was never claimed, so I brought him home to "foster", 5 years ago. I introduced the two of them by giving Tuck a ton of yummy treats every time Sawyer came close, and they got along fine until that first attack.

You all know I would never try to rehome Tucker, he's my baby, and so I have just done the best I could.

Thanks for the input, and I'm sorry if I have upset anyone. Should have kept my ideas to myself!---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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