New and going to the vet on Wed

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Jane&Clyde » 04 Jan 2021, 16:17

Hello everyone!

I'm Jane, and my dog is Clyde. He's a 3 year old ...pit mix? boxer mix? who knows?...that I adopted on October 20, 2020. He was removed from his previous home by Animal Control and taken to the local shelter. At the shelter, he was diagnosed with whipworms and was treated. Then he caught a respiratory infection and was given a round of antibiotics. He is also heartworm positive. When I met him, he was very skinny.

He had his heartworm consult on 10/23/20. In the three days that I had owned him, he had shown some signs of improvement. He had gained a little bit of weight, his coat was becoming thicker, and the open sores that he had were beginning to heal. They did blood work (CBC panel), which was normal. He was also given a month's worth of the antibiotic Doxycycline.

But, there the progress stopped. He just didn't gain any weight. I fed him more food and more food. I tried changing his diet a couple of times, thinking that he could have a food sensitivity. Nothing worked. Then I started paying close attention to all of his symptoms:

voracious appetite
eating feces and inedible objects
lots of stomach rumbling
stools were HUGE
frequent poops (minimum of 3 per day, usually more)
poop was pale to greenish
poop REALLY smelled bad
and, of course, the consistency of the poo was soft (3-5 on the poop scale)

I did some research, and, EUREKA! That sounds like EPI! My research brought me here.

By this time, it was getting close to the holidays. To top things off, my family got Covid. So, taking Clyde to the vet wasn't an option. Instead, I began to treat him as if he had EPI:

Changed his diet to 4% fiber
Added enzymes
Added a pre/probiotic, Proviable

All changes were made a few days apart, and all made a positive difference. I just started adding some Slippery Elm, and I'm not sure if it is making a difference. Proviable may be enough.

I also ordered the Schebo fecal test, and Clyde tested positive for EPI.

Things still aren't "normal", but are much improved, and Clyde has gained a little weight. I suspect his B12 is low, but didn't want to supplement his B12 until after it has been tested. I have Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 ready to use.

Clyde is also drinking and urinating excessively. I know that this sometimes happens with dogs when they are put on enzymes.

So, Clyde is going to the vet on Wednesday for the first time about this condition. I'm hoping to have his TLI, PLI, B12, and folate tested. Should I have his glucose levels tested? Have I forgotten anything?

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jilbert57
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Posts: 2088
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by jilbert57 » 04 Jan 2021, 17:58

Hi Jane,
Thanks for being so proactive in Clydes care. Sounds like you are ready!
What is the name of the food you are feeding?

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Madelon » 04 Jan 2021, 19:47

Hi Jane. First and foremost THANK YOU SO MUCH for adopting Clyde and giving him a chance to live his best life. When you take him to the vet on Wednesday, I'm sure you know this already because it sounds like you are already a pro at managing EPI, but be sure he is fasted for at least 8 hours before they draw his blood for the cTLI/B12 test.

How are Clyde's poops now that you've started the EPI protocol? What food are you feeding/how much? What enzymes are you using and how are you preparing and dose?

Sorry for the question but it will help in making suggestions. If you're following the protocol of 1 tsp (level tsp) enzymes mixed in a little luke warm water per cup of kibble and incubating for 20-30 minutes before serving and the poops are still not quite good then it could be low B12 or it could be the food. Sometimes reducing the fiber even a small amount can make a huge difference.

If you've added the SE and are not seeing any changes in the poop then I would discontinue the SE - when you discontinue it if the poop gets worse, then add it back in and you may need to tweak the amount.

Remember to keep a detailed journal of everything you give and the resulting poops and take poop pictures - we LOVE poop pictures here :)
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Jan 2021, 20:06

Hi JAne.... and WOW!!!!!!!!! Thank you so much for opening your hear and our home to Clyde... and double thank you for planning on having him tested with the PLI, TLI and B12 tests.... even after the schebo test..... you are simply the best mom for Clyde!..

Oh... and yes, do have him tested for Diabets (it's simple) jsut to be on the safe side.
What kind of enzymes are you giving him (brand name/amount per amount of food and how are you preparing it?)
What kind of food are you giving.?
SInce you have started the Proviable and now when adding the SLippery ELm you are not seeing much if any improvement, then just save the SLippery ELm for a flare up or for yourself (or for cooking or burns...... seriously!)

In the meantime, when CLyde goes for the tests, no need to stop the enzymes, but as you stated... do NOT start the B12 pills until after the blood test is done... be sure to "food" fast Clyde for 12 hrs prior to the blood tests beings done.

Also... ask for the exact results and share them with us here..... and feel free to take poop pics and post.... sometimes pictures are worth 1000 words!.

Hope you all are doing much better now and that you are Covid free.... so sorry you got sick.

Keep us posted.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Jane&Clyde
Member
Posts: 157
Country: United States
Pet name: Clyde
My name: Jane

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Jane&Clyde » 05 Jan 2021, 15:22

Thanks for the warm welcomes, questions, and suggestions. I am so grateful already for this site and the information and experience it contains.

The food I am feeding is Muenster Milling Ancient Grains with Chicken. The company is a small one in Texas that no one has ever heard of. I tend to rotate my other dog's food, and the food I was feeding had 6% fiber. When I saw the recommendation on here for 4% fiber or less, I grabbed the bag of Muenster that I had sitting in the garage and saw that it had 4% fiber, so I switched to it. Honestly, I wasn't expecting much of a positive change because it has both grain and chicken, but I was pleasantly surprised when his poops became better even before my enzymes arrived. I want to see if Clyde needs B12 supplements before I consider changing his food again because we are getting VERY close to normal poops. Also, my other dog has food sensitivities and if they can both eat the same food, it saves me the worry of accidentally getting the foods mixed up.

I was a using a variety of human enzymes in capsules. I opened enough capsules to have 400,000 or more USPs of both amylase and proteas, plus 40,000 or more USPs of lipase, per cup of food. My Enzyme Diane 8x has just arrived, and I will be starting with the recommended 3/4 tsp per cup of food.

To prepare the food, I mix a little water with a little yogurt and heat it to barely lukewarm. Then I add in the enzymes and mix. Then I add the kibble to all of that and mix. I leave it sit for 20-30 minutes before feeding.

Clyde weighs roughly 35 lbs. I am guessing that he should weigh around 45 lbs. The food I am feeding is relatively calorie dense (500kcal/cup). I am feeding him 1 cup twice a day. I am guessing that his normal amount should be around 3/4 cup twice a day, so I am feeding him around 133% of his "normal" amount of kibble, plus the added bit of yogurt. Not quite 150% total, but close.

I will fast Clyde prior to the vet visit. Thanks for the reminder! How important is it that he be completely fasted? When I take him outside to go to the bathroom he grabs mouthfuls of grass in spite of my best efforts. The grass eating is diminishing but still occurs. Plus, he is always licking up dust, dog hair, etc. I guess all I can do is try my best to prevent him from eating anything.

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Barb » 05 Jan 2021, 15:26

Hi Jane. Clyde hit the jackpot when he landed with you. Thank you for giving him a new start.....with all the care it entails. You are already doing all the right things and everyone has given you excellent advice. May I just suggest keeping a log/journal to keep track of what is working and what may need to be adjusted. Record everything you give him on a daily basis, the amounts and the resulting poos. It helps to see it in writing . It helped us enormously. Let us know the results of all his tests. We know he will thrive with you.

Barb

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jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2088
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by jilbert57 » 05 Jan 2021, 17:31

The only reason you might have to change foods would be if the grains disagreed with Clyde but sounds like so far so good.
Let us know how the vet visit goes!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Olesia711 » 05 Jan 2021, 20:23

Barb and Jill both gave GREAT suggestions.... definitely start keeping a journal and Jill is spot on about the food.... if he is doing well on it, even if it has grains in it... no need to change :)

Now about that grass eating.... in all the years of running this forum... that is the FIRST time i have ever been asked that.... and i have to say, i honestly don't know the answer... i know you cannot feed them food for a minimum of 12 hours, ... so i guess it depends on exactly how much grass he eats....i guess one thing you can do is just keep him on a leash on him those few hours before his blood is drawn for the tests....

Good Luck and keep us posted!!!!!!!!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Madelon » 05 Jan 2021, 21:14

Awwww Clyde is so lucky to have you and I expect you feel the same :) My non-EPI dog is a grass eater - always has been and always will be - apparently she knows what she needs LOL. My EPI dog is EXTREMELY food sensitive (so many food sensitivities it makes my head spin) but my non-EPI dog has to be on a diet food which has items my EPI boy can't have so I understand wanting them to have both on the same food. I unfortunately can't but luckily my non-EPI dog's food is relatively inexpensive.

Keep us posted!
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: New and going to the vet on Wed

Post by Jean » 06 Jan 2021, 04:31

Welcome from the UK

firstly I am so sorry your family contracted Covid, I hope you are recovered, or at least in recovery

You really have been Sherlock Holmes in your investigations, and I have little to add

I have to say that eating grass before an EPI test has never occurred to me, and thank you for bringing it to our attention as it needs to be looked at, and I am sure Olesia will

I have looked a little bit about grass and it doesnt seem to be an issue , but I am not a researcher or a laboratory person, and it does say food fasted

B12 supplemtation to an EPI dog is essential for their digestion process

I also say keep a diary, and take pictures

Keep in touch

Jeanx
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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