New member needs advice, dog will not eat

[Olesia711]

Hi Mari,

I am impressed!!!! The WePharm company just responded (and on a Sunday too!) to my question about their WeNyzmes. They answered my my initial questions.

YES, this is an enteric coated porcine enzyme product for dogs... but..... they confirmed what i suggested to you..... although the suggest starting with 1 scoop.... that might be too much for your dog so try a little less and see if that helps with the appetite.

They said that some dogs need less and some dogs need more..... very similar to what happens with some of our USA products, but i am so glad they confirmed this.

SOOOOOOOoooooooooooo please try giving less enzymes for a few days with the meals and see if that seems to help any with the appetite... if not, then we can look at other possible causes.

Also.... let me know how much she weighs, and i can work out a diet for her that agrees with many EPI dogs... BUT...like i said before, you need to show it to your vet before feeding her this homemade diet all the time.

[Barb]

Hi Mari,

I just want to endorse the B12 supplementation. Whenever Kolby had appetite issues, it was usually B12 that needed to be tweaked. When he was first diagnosed, he did not start gaining weight until we got his B12 levels up. But he didn't like the enzymes either, so I know how frustrating this can be.

Hang in there.

Barb

[Mari]

I am sorry I have not replied before. This week was very stressful, new job and poorly dog is a tricky combination, and I just could not find the focus to write anything. But I read all the suggestions and it helped so much to follow the advice from you guys. So thank you all!

I went down to half dose of creon, started giving the enzymes in cream cheese before her meal, and got her a b12 injection. I also tried yet another food. It is not grain free, but at least she eats it. And it's decent enough food (rc gastrointestinal wet food). Yesterday the WeNzymes finally arrived and I started her on those today. I definitely think she was on a too high dose of creon like suggested, so I started with half a scoop WeNzyme and will adjust if I need to.

I'm not sure she is eating enough yet, I can only get her to eat 3-400g in a day, but she is eating and she seems more energetic. She does this weird thing where she eats about 100g and then stops abruptly, so I have to try and space out 4 meals. I will have to keep a close eye on her weight and perhaps add some human food if she can't get enough kcal from the dog food. She's had some fish and chicken as dessert some days and she seems to have room for more if it is tempting enough.

Olesia: Thank you so much for contacting WePharm and for the generous offer. I would feel bad letting you do the work of creating a diet when I'm not sure yet if I will go that route. I am interested in learning more though, and I am still considering a home made diet or partial home made diet. My dog is currently 9kg and she should be closer to 10. Thankfully she still has muscle, but she has no fat at all, her ribs are showing so I do not want her to drop more weight.

[Madelon]

So glad to hear she's eating some and that you got the B12 shot. Please remember to take care of yourself too And update us when you can

[Olesia711]

Hmmm.... how weird. I responded to you last night and my post is gone

ANyway.... just wanted to let you know that i hope this week is a better week.... and please keep us posted on the WePharm enzymes / how they work.... now that you rec'd them... What i would like to say though is that i am very impressed with the company (WePharm) customer service... they were awesome to deal with!

[Mari]

Update and questions.

My sweet little stubborn spaniel is still not eating very well. She will eat well for a few days and then randomly stop and refuse to eat more of that food. I'll find another one that she likes, but then a few days later she'll stop again. She is down to 8,8kg, probably 1kg underweight, and I am really concerned about her actually starving if this continues.

I am ready to try a homemade diet, I would love some help getting started if you are still willing Olesia! I will run it by my vet, but I know she is positive to homemade diets as long as they are well put together. Any help is appreciated!

WeEnzymes seem to be working. But the suggested dose on the package was half a scoop a day divided between meals. I have had to increase it to almost a full scoop with every meal. So it will be much more expensive than creon and I'm not sure it works better. It does have b12 and probiotics in it though, so that's a big plus.

I have started to give her slippery elm. I thought it was working wonders because she ate for four days straight after I started giving it. But she has refused food today so I'm not sure. Will keep giving it though. Am I supposed to give it before every meal, or just twice a day? The instructions on the bottle say twice daily, but these are capsules for humans so I have just opened them and sprinkled a little in yoghurt before every meal.

I am starting to wonder if her age is making it impossible to manage this disease. She is still happy and playful. But she is so skinny and I can see that she has less energy when she is not eating. I'm not giving up on her, but I am afraid of losing her to this. I am almost afraid of taking her on walks because I don't want her to burn kcals, but I know she needs to run and be a normal dog.

[Olesia711]

Hi Mari,
SO sorry that Laurie is having issues with eating.

First thing, just to make doubly sure..... have the vet examine her to make sure there is not a kidney issue going on.

Next .... what you are describing with the food, she eats and then she loses interest, you change food again, she eats and then loses interest yet again... OMG.. that is what my non-EPI dog did... it was nerve-wracking... what it was (even though this dog did not even have EPI) was low B12.

I know you said she had a shot, but one shot may not do it. First.... make sure that the vet did NOT give a complex B12 shot.... they are not potent enough. EPI dogs need Cobalamin B12 serum or you probably have Hydroxycoalamin B12 serum in Norway. make sure your little pup gets a shot every week... and you may not see improvement until a few/3 weeks. Or you may see better appetite within a week.
The B12 in the enzymes, it is usually not enough to make a big difference......

Another thing that can be causing the inappetence is SID. Typically we suggest giving pre+probiotics first to help populate the gut with more bacteria which is needed with EPI dogs.... however.... since you are very worried about our little one.... talk to your vet and see if she is willing to prescribe Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate soluble powder antibiotic /twice daily for 45 days).... and ALSO after a few weeks on the Tylan, then introduce a quality probiotic (with prebiotics in it) that your vet feels is a good product... Probiotics CAN be given with Tylan because TYlan is a macrolide antibiotic and does NOT kill all the bacteria but rather inhibits reproduction... so this method is kind of like finding a happy medium, takes time, but works. DO NOT GIVE METRONIDAZOLE!!!!!

Okay... give me a little time and i will work up a diet for your and then ask your vet if she agrees with it.
Before i start though, do you have these food items in Norway:
1. sweet potato
2. tapioca pearls
3. kale, squash, green string beans, celery

Just let me know and i will start working on a diet for you.

[Mari]

Thank you again for the excellent information!

They did not specifically check the kidneys. But they did two blood tests, spaced 3 weeks apart, that included kidney parameters, like creatinine and urea. All kidney values were normal on both blood samples. So if her kidneys are damaged it's not showing on a normal blood test yet.

Yes, her behaviour around food is very strange. She is clearly hungry, but will not eat the food she seemed to love the day before. She will still take treats and seems perfectly happy. It's like she suddenly decided to become a picky eater after 14 years of eating everything remotely edible.

She did get the correct B12 injection (I checked now), but she only got one, so she probably needs more. It's encouraging to hear that your dog behaved similarly around food when low on b12. It is crazy expensive though, do you mean she needs it weekly forever, or until I can get her to eat and balance her enzymes?

I will definitely add pre-and probiotics to her diet. I was hoping the probiotics in her enzymes would be enough. And I have been scared to add stuff because it is difficult to get her to eat at all. Let alone sneak in the enzymes and slippery elm and liver protectant and estrogen and bile duct protectant. But it's worth a try so I will get some from the vets.

I don't think we have tylan here, but I will remember to avoid metronidazole. I can start with pre-and probiotics and see if that helps. She is skinny, but not cachectic yet, so we can try a few weeks I think. She has had a noisy tummy a few days since this started, but that seems to go away on the days that she eats a decent amount. Come think of it, I have not smelled a single toot all week, maybe the slippery elm is helping.

I have never seen tapioca pearls, I found tapioca flour in a health food store online. Maybe I can find pearls in an international shop in town, not sure. We do have sweet potato, kale and celery (stem and root). I think asparagus beans are more common, but I'm pretty sure we have green string beans as well. We only have zucchini, sadly other squashes have not been discovered here yet.

I really cannot thank you enough for helping. I am making a list of important info to talk to my vet about. We are planning on doing a new set of blood samples soon. We wanted to wait a month between tests. I will bring urine samples and ask if there is an indication to do more specific kidney testing. I will also ask about SID.

[Olesia711]

Okay.; thanks for letting me know what foods are available.
DO have the vet thoroughly check for any possible kidney issues/values that might be off.

No need to retest the TLI.... BUT.... yes! re-test the B12 but you need to give the B12 shot weekly for 6 weeks and then wait a month and then re-test the B12... if you test before, it will not be accurate...

The other type of B12 you can do is order from WOnderlabs in the USA https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 contact them directly they do ship overseas, but contact them directly to see if they ship to the Netherland.... Their product uses Methylcobalamin B12 which often works better then the shots or Cyanocobalmin B12.... but if the shots were Hydroxycobalamin B12... then that should be about as good.

Or you can order B12 pills (same as the WOnderlabs Pet Factor B12) from Chemeyes in the UK.
https://www.chemeyes.co.uk/b12intrinsicfactorcapsules/# Contact them directly and see of they can ship to the Netherlands.

Regarding B12 shots.... what you can do is ask your vet to sell you a bottle of the B12 serum and show you how to give the shots at home.

In the meantime.... i will start working on a diet for you

[Patsy]

Hello again Mari, I’m relieved you are in good hands here. Laurie is a mystery. What colour and consistency are her poops now? Is she on medication for her other conditions? If the yellow/grey soft poop has improved, she must be absorbing some nutrition.
Like everyone else on the forum, I was in tears trying to get Marti to eat, when she would happily help herself to dog poo. I often thought that she was giving herself a faecal health treat. Very fashionable now.
Does Laurie have excessive thirst or urination? This will dilute a urine sample to being invalid. The enzymes often make them extremely thirsty at first., not helped if they are also on a dry food diet. Will Laurie eat raw minced fish, beef or venison? I certainly found that cooked, mashed sweet potato Is tasty , and high in calories. Also scrambled eggs!
What you need to be sure of, is whether the home made diet is also suitable for her other conditions. This is much preferable to the canned prescription diets. Epi doesn’t need one, and from my experience the Renal diet one that Bobby (cocker)had , was so bland he refused it. My vet however, for legal reasons,would only recommend the cans. It’s very difficult.