New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Olesia711 » 08 Feb 2021, 12:23

Hi Mari,

Okay i worked out 2 meal plans for Laurie that you can alternate with... BUT...... please first show your vet the home-made meal plans to make sure she approves.... and make sure that the vet is comfortable that this is enough calories per day for Laurie.

i basically did meals with chicken and fish. Ingredient values are correct EXCEPT for the fish- -those numbers are "generalized" values, because it really depends on what kind of fish you feed as to how many calories there are, fat, carbs & proteins.

Each meal plan should b enough food for 2 days. Just split into 6 parts and serve 3 parts for each day (breakfast, lunch & dinner) with enzymes and whatever other meds you are giving.

You can alternate lean beef, lean pork loin, or turkey white and dark meat for the chicken and you can alternate types of fish.
However... keep an EPI journal so you can see what foods she likes or doesn't.
IF she appears to have an adverse reaction to dairy- then do not do the cottage cheese, if she appears to have a reaction to eggs, then do not do scrambled eggs.

All these foods are baked at low temps. Never bake at high temps.
Ask your vet what quality doggie vitamin to include daily and in addition include a fish oil supplement- -the reason for this is because EPI dogs are extra short on fat soluble vitamins.
And talk to your vet about bone supplementation. I personally use UPCO porcine bone meal https://www.amazon.com/Upco-Bone-Steame ... B00IJFAEKY to cover bone content... but you can use dried finely crushed egg shells.... but ask your vet what she would recommend.

Also.... it is important to include some organ meats in a dogs diet- -they typically recommend 10% organ meat....... however, i often do not include organ meats in the proposed diet because sometimes some dogs cannot handle organ meats because of the high fat content.... so.... what you can do is try adding for example 1 chicken liver (or 1 ounce of liver) to the meals to see if it is well tolerated... OR.... if you have a dehydrator.... what i do is buy beef liver and slice it very thin. Once dehydrated, i give bites of the dehydrated liver as treats to my dog. The natural enzymes are preserved and my dog gets a healthy treat. But again, this is something you will have to try to see if it agrees with your pup.

I will also send this to you privately so you can easily share/email with your vet.
It is in and EXCEL chart format. If you cannot open an EXCEL chart... please let me know!
Netherlands diet.xlsx
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Mari
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Posts: 14
Country: Norway
Pet name: Laurië
My name: Mari

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Mari » 09 Feb 2021, 10:24

Thank you! This is so generous of you! I have allready cooked up a batch to see if she'll eat it. Vet will be consulted on anything I feed her, don't worry. Just wanted to test it out on my little fussy eater. Will need to find supplements and organ meats for the next batch. Norwegians don't really eat organs so it's not available in normal supermarkets, but I'm sure one of the fancier ones will order in if I ask. I used to dehydrate chicken hearts and beef liver in the oven as reward-snacks when I lived in Hungary, but I don't think I've ever seen any organs in stores here. Silly Norwegins will eat stinky, dried fish, but don't even think about serving us liver :lol: i really hope my dog appreciates your hard work and eats this. I am sure my vet can help find vitamins and bone supplements. And fish oil is easy enough to get. Thank you so much for everything! I will send the excell on to my vet and let you know how we get on.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Olesia711 » 10 Feb 2021, 23:35

You are welcome.... and THAT is interesting that in Norway they don't seem to sell organ meats..... in that case.... ask your vet what would she recommend in lieu of organ meat like chicken or beef liver (or heart.... beef heart is excellent).... maybe there is some other animal organ part?

Please keep us posted ... and i really hope the homemade diet works out!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Mari
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Posts: 14
Country: Norway
Pet name: Laurië
My name: Mari

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Mari » 27 Feb 2021, 10:36

What a rollercoaster this disease has turned out to be! I am afraid to write an update because I never seem to know what tomorrow brings.

She has mostly been eating after I started the home made diet. One batch she didn't like and got gas from (I added too much kale), but started eating again on the next batch. Her poops have not been great, but not terrible eiher. Still a little lighter brown than I would like. But formed, not runny. I had to give much more enzymes than the recommended dosage to get an ok result.

Someone asked abut drinking and urination, don't think I answered, sorry. But yes increased both. Hoping it's just the enzymes causing it. I know the differential diagnosis for that is unpleasant. Kidneys are cleared for now, re-check in 3 months.

I brought the diet suggestion to my vet and she adjusted/personalized it slightly. Mostly simplified it and added more fatty meats and a little cheese for extra kcals and palatability. So now we have fish days and meat days separately for simplicity and some extra omega-3 oil.

We did another set of blood samples. Liver is still doing good. Kidneys are good too. But my vet wants us to be mindful the kidneys due to age. She wants me to try and find supplements without phosphorous. Calcium carbonate, fish oil, psyllium husk and multivitamins. Haven't found the vitamins yet, but apparently, we have some time to search for the perfect one. Dog is still getting weekly b12 shots, and slipper elm with ever meal.

We checked for pancreatitis too, before increasing the fat in the diet. I guess cockers can have this autoimmune thing causing chronic pancreatitis, but she was cleared of that. So I will graduall add more fa into her diet to see if she tolerates it.

There was no indication for antibiotics regarding SIBO/SID. Tylan is not available here either. But she has very little gas after I swapped kale with green beans in her food and she does not have diarrhoea. So the plan for her gut health is just pre- and probiotics. We tried one brand, but that did not agree with her so I ordered another.

Current plan:
- Home cooked diet
- Enzymes
- B12 shots
- Omega-3 oil
- Slippery elm
- Probiotics
- Vitamins
- Calcium carbonate
- Liver protectant
- Bile duct protectant
- Psyllium husk

Lucky I don't have human kids that need m attention because this is quite the project. She is absolutely worth it though!

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Mari
Member
Posts: 14
Country: Norway
Pet name: Laurië
My name: Mari

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Mari » 27 Feb 2021, 10:49

Olesia711 wrote: 10 Feb 2021, 23:35 You are welcome.... and THAT is interesting that in Norway they don't seem to sell organ meats..... in that case.... ask your vet what would she recommend in lieu of organ meat like chicken or beef liver (or heart.... beef heart is excellent).... maybe there is some other animal organ part?

Please keep us posted ... and i really hope the homemade diet works out!
My vet is new to Norway so she was also surprised to learn that organ meats are not available in normal grocery shops. I think you can get beef liver in some fancier supermarkets, but she did not recommend that for my dog now. I will have to ask at a bigger supermarket what they can supply, I think. I don't have a car though (too much snow for bikes and too much covid for buses), and I haven't prioritized it yet as I was wondering day to day if the dog would eat at all. I will find a solution in the long run ;)

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Feb 2021, 11:25

WOW.... i am SOOOOOOOOooo glad to hear that the homemade diet is mostly working, and i am THRILLED that your vet reviewed it and actually adjusted it a wee but... That is awesome and i am so very pleased!!! I wish more vets would really pay attention to diet details.... as i truly believe that diet plans a much bigger part in the health of our dogs than previously believed!

Yeah, too much kale can give gas.... when the gas started, glad you figured that out!

Regarding organ meats ... they are essential for a balanced diet.... although i do no know what to suggest for this, maybe your vet can advise specific supplements to compensate..... not sure if this would be equivalent to fresh organ meat, but maybe. The ONLY other thing i can think of (and don't even know if this is possible) is wild game...like moose or deer organ meats from local hunters??? But, like i said, not sure if this is even feasible.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Mari
Member
Posts: 14
Country: Norway
Pet name: Laurië
My name: Mari

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Mari » 27 Feb 2021, 13:14

I think I was lucky and ended up with the correct vet for this diagnosis. I guess they have their areas of interest/extra expertise. I will admit I was slightly nervous about bringing up homemade diets, but your meal suggestions made it easier since I had a starting point to show her that I wasn't talking about leftover pizza. Anyway, I was very relieved that she was so open to it and wanted to perfect it. I am sure we will figure out the organ stuff, she did inform me that it is essential long term. I suppose I could find a raw-feed forum and ask what they do. There is a company that sells full diet frozen raw food too, I could buy that and see if it is possible to cook and if my dog will eat it. But surely there is a way to get organs, because I know there are pepole who do raw feeding here. I'll start with the bigger supermarkets and go from there. Hunters are not a bad idea either, or just contact a slaughterhouse. There is one a few towns over. I will figure it out :) I just needed to know that I could get her to eat more than two days in a row before I risked buses and adventures :)

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Olesia711 » 27 Feb 2021, 13:20

AHHhhhh So there ARE raw feeders there... that might be a great way to start...... network with others :)

And YES!!! you certainly did luck out with this vet...... i am very impressed :)

Please continue to keep us posted and paws and fingers crossed that the eating continues
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by Madelon » 28 Feb 2021, 09:25

So glad to hear she is eating and the homemade diet is working - I tried it once with my German Shepherd but it was too costly and too difficult for me to figure out. Hope things continue to improve - please keep us posted.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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alex
Member
Posts: 27
Country: Hong Kong SAR China
Pet name: douzi
My name: alex

Re: New member needs advice, dog will not eat

Post by alex » 06 Jun 2021, 07:33

HI!Mari
Have you ever tried ursodeoxycholic acid? Because my situation is similar to yours!
My dog is Dou Zi, 15 years old. He's been using lypex. He has a good stool, but he never gains weight.
Moreover, he often has no appetite and doesn't eat at will. He doesn't eat homemade, canned or freeze-dried food. Especially in the morning, during the day, he has a bad appetite.
His appetite usually gets better in the evening.
He will also stop suddenly while eating food, as if he suddenly has a bad place. I don't know if it's stomach ache or gallbladder ache?
Douzi has cholestasis. I don't know if that's why our kids don't have an appetite.
In addition, he is very fond of raw carrots, even if he does not have any appetite, want to eat carrots. I guess it's because carrots can't be digested. He feels full when he eats them. It won't cause gallbladder or stomach pain?
I guess a lot, and I don't know why. Doctors don't know.
I'll try ursodeoxycholic acid to see if it works.
Sorry, my English is not good, I use Google to translate.

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