New EPI diagnosis

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Buttermom1
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Buttermom1 » 18 Jan 2021, 17:20

Three meals is fine. Just split the amount evenly. The eating the stool should stop once everything is leveled out. With the adjusted enzymes the undigested food should lessen and make the stool less appetizing. As for the free feeding, my recommendation is not to leave it down for more than an hour. I would suggest not using the feeder. You’ll get there. My Butterbean was diagnosed at 6 years and once we got her stable it became second nature caring for her. It became so normal that I felt odd feeding my current dog without enzymes.
Susan

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Olesia711 » 18 Jan 2021, 19:43

Regarding the automatic feeder..... no.... that is not a good idea with enzymed food.

Ahh.... i hear you, as do many others about working and not being able to feed more than 3 meals... BUT.... what you can do, (if you go home for lunch to feed her a mid day meal).... Feed breakfast, lunch, another meal after work when you get home, and another meal just before you go to bed.... that will give you 4 meals. :)

That poo eating thing.... usually it starts out of necessity, then it become a bad habit :( Many do stop eating their own poo once their body replenishes/heals itself with the right EPI treatment..... BUT............in the meantime.... what you can try (this worked for us, but may or may not work for you- -but worth trying) add a little crushed pineapple to the meals (maybe 1/2 tsp)... supposedly it tastes good going in... but dosn't taste so good when it comes out the back end............. at least it won't hurt.

The other thing i have heard to try is sprinkle a little Accent (food enhancer) on their food.... but honestly... that is not something i would do with our little one yet... i'd wait doing something with chemicals until much later if still needed.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

CaliGirl
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by CaliGirl » 18 Jan 2021, 23:10

Again, I can’t thank you all enough for all of your suggestions/recommendations. I feel like this forum has changed my life! I was so stressed out and sad and now I feel so much better about all of this. Ok to answer some questions, her B12 was tested at the same time the TLI test was performed. She never said anything to me regarding her B12 so I would assume it was ok? However you should never assume so I do have a message out asking what her levels were, so I will update you once I have that. She is currently taking and has been taking a pre/probiotic. Purina Fortaflora powder. She gets a little sprinkle once a day ( not the whole packet) But I have been playing with that as well to see if it was maybe too much for her and that’s what was causing the more poops/soft. But it didn’t seem to change taking it completely away. Stayed the same. I am definitely going to try the increase in food and enzymes.(thank you so much Olesia) the treats I get it. It is just so hard so maybe at a later time someone can help me regarding making homemade treats with the enzymes added. Before we knew anything she was getting regular treats and was very food driven/easy to train that way, hopefully I will be able to figure out something! I just can’t express how much this has changed my life, I would cry every night because I knew something was wrong for weeks, the minute she was pooping so much and wasn’t retaining anything I was feeding her. They kept telling me it’s the parvo recovery. But I knew it wasnt. I know you all know that feeling of literally watching a dog starving before your eyes. It still breaks my heart that it took this long. I’m really happy to have found you all and just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart! Once I make the food and enzyme changes I will update. And also when the doctor gets back to me about her b12 levels.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 19 Jan 2021, 13:59

Welcome from Pam & Tucker, in FL. My dog was the worst poo eater, from the time he was a puppy, and now, a year and a half later----I'm not gonna say he never eats it, but he definitely hardly ever does. This has been the case for at least a year. The best thing is to just not let the opportunity present itself.

Interesting about the parvo. I had a parvo puppy back when the survival rate was low, and Scout lived to 14. EPI Tucker had a ton of parasites, including demodex, when he was a puppy, as well as yeast & other infections, and he was on ivermectin & other meds for months. I always wondered if there was a connection.

We are glad you are here. We forum members will all put in our two cents, and anecdotal evidence can be very helpful, but my advice is----Always listen to Olesia. And listen to the rest of the staff, too, because they are really, really smart. And always ask your questions; nobody gets tired of trying to help. Take Care!!!
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Olesia711 » 19 Jan 2021, 14:17

Hi Nicole,
Do find out from your vet exactly what the B12 test results were. Too many vets think that if the results are in the normal range, all is well... and with an EPI dog, you need the B12 level to be in the upper mid range at a minimum!.... At least upper 500's or somewhere in the 600's. Normal is not good enough.

The other mistake vets make is that once they bring up the B12 levels they think all is done.... again, not so with EPI dogs who have a "chronic" condition.... even after levels are brought up to upper mid range... you will then need to come up with a "maintenance" dose of B12 going forward forever to keep the B12 levels up.

Ahh... the treats... i hear you. For now no treats... BUT once Cali is stable (delivering good poos consistently) then you can start trying things. At that point, you can start with a tiny piece of protein (dehydrated meat without enzymes) but given within an hour of an enzymed meal.... and see how it goes.... if poos are okay... then you can try a high protein treat beyond an hour of an enzymed meal.... or not. some dogs can, others can't. We also have some great "treat" ideas listed on the treat page.... some made with enzymes, others not.... that you can try. The only thing you will need to avoid are commercial treats that are made with flour/carbs etc.... if need be, you would be better off making your own where you can control the ingredients.

Ahh... a sprinkle of Forti Flora.... stick with it............
But if the slightly increased enzymes doesn't seem to help at all..... THEN... the next thing i would try next is adding a pinch of SLippery ELm Powder... as i outlined in my other post.
And if SLippery ELm doesn't work (and since you are already giving a probiotic)... then you are at crossroads with two more choices... but.... because Cali is so small, i would advise to ask your vet which option he feels would be best to try next:
1. Change the food to a different low fiber puppy food that has MUCH less fiber content in it...........
2. Stay on the current food and start a course of Tylan antibiotic.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Barb » 19 Jan 2021, 17:01

Hello, Nicole. A warm welcome to you and Cali. We all know your pain so well. It is so hard to see our pups suffering and feel like we are not able to do anything. The good news is that we can do everything to help our pups thrive and lead a normal life. Once you have the enzymes, food, B12 in balance, you will see a big improvement. The beginning stage is the hardest while you are working at achieving that balance but you are turning it around already, as you can see. You and your pup have had a lot to deal with. I'm sure it is going to get easier.

One thing you may already be doing is keeping a log/journal recording everything you give Cali on a daily basis and the resulting poos. As she responds to the enzymes, you will see changes and the log will help you to keep track of what is working and what isn't. We found the journal to be enormously helpful especially at the beginning.

And as others have said, ask all the questions you want.

Try not to be overwhelmed. It will get better.

Barb

CaliGirl
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Posts: 63
Country: United States
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Pet name: Cali
My name: Nicole

Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by CaliGirl » 19 Jan 2021, 23:55

I love getting these welcome messages! Thank you so much! It is truly making this all so much easier! I havnt heard back from the hospital regarding her B12 levels, I sent the message last night so I am still waiting on that. I have an order of slippery elm coming to have on deck! Cali only pooped 4 times today and hasn’t tried to eat not a one of them! This is soooooo good! They are not soft but not completely hard, again a win in my book, but still work to do! She has SO MUCH energy! I absolutely love it!!! She is a little parana and making up for lost times chewing on everything! But I am just so happy! She is definitely starting to fill out! You can’t see her bones as much, but again still needs to gain a lot more! Things are definitely only going to go up from here! I just know it! Thank you all so much!!!!!

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Olesia711
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Olesia711 » 20 Jan 2021, 11:25

Hi Nicole,

Great news!!!! And please continue to keep us posted.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

CaliGirl
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Posts: 63
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Cali
My name: Nicole

Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by CaliGirl » 20 Jan 2021, 22:49

Hi everyone. I just got a message about her B12 levels. Dr said she was at 559. Does this sound good enough to not be on supplement? I have an appt with regular vet on Friday and a re-check at the hospital on the 29th, should they be checked again at that time, you think? And just one more question, does anyone have ideas on the incubating period. Cali just gets so excited to eat, the minute she hears that food go into her bowl she goes crazy, then for 20 minutes to a half hour, she just runs like a crazy dog, back and fourth. She is so young so I’m hoping so will eventually just understand, but thought I would see if anyone had any tricks!

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Johnnycake
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Re: New EPI diagnosis

Post by Johnnycake » 21 Jan 2021, 11:39

Johnny's the same way with waiting for his food to be done incubating! He's about 7-8 months old so I hear you on the puppy behavior, haha.

The more experienced EPI folks can probably give you some better advice, but at least for Johnny, there are a couple of things I've found to be beneficial.

Getting into a good routine definitely helps - Johnny still wants to eat right away but he's realized by now that he sees me get food ready, we do something else for a bit, and then he gets to eat. A lot of times I'll get his food ready and then we'll have a short walk, or a play or training session. We've worked a lot on his impulse control in general (my cats helped teach him that one, haha), and I think that's helped a lot too. He's gotten very used to having to train a bit first before he gets his food now.

Since your girl is also a puppy and has lots of energy, something that might help just in general is provding some enrichment to stimulate and tire her out mentally - training, putting her food in slow/puzzle feeders, stimulating/safe scents, that sort of thing. I learned this from one of my cats, who was born feral and used to get extremely excited for food, beg for hours, and then wolf everything down and then just vomit it back up again. But I think if you can get them to slow down a bit in general with eating, that can decrease some of the excess excitement a bit. Not sure if I explained that in a way that made sense, but Johnny does really well with slow feeding bowls, incubated food stuffed into Kongs, training before meals, that sort of thing. He also loves ice cubes! Maybe you could try a bowl of ice cubes while the food is incubating and see if that keeps her entertained, haha.

Lastly I think it's just helped that he's put on a fair bit of weight now and doesn't feel like he's starving all the time anymore. I'm sure you guys will get there!!!

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