Adjust enzyme amount?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Curtis
Member
Posts: 7
Country: Canada
State: *
Pet name: Lucy

Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Curtis » 31 Jan 2021, 10:39

Good morning, this is my first post but have been lurking here for a month or so. Thank you to this site and forum for all the info I have gotten from it to understand EPI.

My english bulldog is 11 months old and was diagnosed with epi a month ago. We went from chronic diarrhea for 2 months to being fairly regular since being on the enzymes ( from Enzyme Diane again thanks to this site ).

Her poop for a month has been consistent 4s or 5s according to the poop chart and some days 2 poops and some days as many as 5. We are happy with that because we had months of diarrhea. My question is SHOULD I be happy with that or should I be adjusting the enzymes a bit? Today she gets exactly 1 cup of kibble and 1 tsp of enzyme per meal (properly incubated ) and no other food /treats at all. Do I adjust up, down, or leave it? If I adjust do I do it for a couple of days and see what happens or will I know right away?

Thanks in advance everyone, i am so glad to have found this group.

Curtis

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1241
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by jilbert57 » 31 Jan 2021, 10:51

Hi Curtis and welcome to you two. Will you post the results of the Tli for us. Also was the B12 also tested? Sounds like you are managing the Epi pretty well but there may be some tweaks.

I believe I would leave the enzymes where you have them. Are they 6x in strength?

What food are you feeding? We usually recommend grain free, 4% fiber or less and if it contains peas or legumes please may it be 4th or further down on ingredient list.

Most dogs have low B12 when diagnosed. It needs to be in the upper mid range or higher. This can be oral supplement or B12 shots weekly.

Have you heard tummy rumblings, gas, burps?
Most pups have SID/SIBO when diagnosed with EPI and a 45 day course of Tylan is recommended. You can also use Slippery elm in place of Tylan first to see if it helps.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Curtis
Member
Posts: 7
Country: Canada
State: *
Pet name: Lucy

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Curtis » 31 Jan 2021, 11:13

Sorry I do not know the TLi score. Her b12 was tested and was fine. I am using the 6x. She is on a limited ingredient, grain free kibble with no peas legumes etc and 4% fibre content (again thanks to the info here!) Prior to her being diagnosed her guts were very rumbly and gassy but not at all since being on the enzymes. She seems perfect in every way now with the exception that I am not sure her poop is quite where it should be according to the chart. Thanks again for helping!

User avatar
Madelon
President
Posts: 1275
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Madelon » 31 Jan 2021, 11:34

Hi Curtis - welcome to our Forum. If you are not supplementing B12 and it's been a month since diagnosis I would recommend getting the B12 tested again. EPI dogs need their B12 on the high side of normal 600+ - so while your vet said the B12 was good it might not be good enough for an EPI dog. Supplementing B12 is for life with these dogs and low B12 can affect weight, mood, appetite and yes the poop.

So if it were me, before adjusting the enzymes I would try to find out from the vet what the B12 was at the time of testing for EPI and then either go ahead and start supplementing the B12 or get it tested again and then start supplementing.
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 651
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 31 Jan 2021, 17:03

And, Curtis, if you do decide to just start supplementing, try to get Wonderlabs B12 w/intrinsic factor. Amazon has it, it's all Tucker has ever taken, and he's doing well. ---Pam
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 one capsule 2X day, slippery elm 1/4 teaspoon/day, and Tylan 1/4 teaspoon twice/day (therapeutic for returning SID). Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 3 1/2 cups/day. No more poop eating, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1929
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Olesia711 » 31 Jan 2021, 17:29

HI Curtis and welcome to our EPI family.

B12
As mentioned in the other posts.... call your vet and find out exactly what the B12 test results were.... and post here. Too many times we have heard the vets say the B12 was fine and because it was in the normal range or low normal... neither are good enough for an EPI dog as they all have SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) to one degree or another....and SID munches away at any B12 reserves..... so with EPI dogs, the B12 can plummet dramatically. Even once you achieve upper mid range B12.... you need to supplement it with a maintenance level of B12 (this is if it wasn't upper mid-range to begin with). SO... All this just to say, no matter what.... check on the B12.. It is very important to the overall recovery of an EPI dog.

Because the poos are better but not exactly optimal.... it usually means that things are not optimal for your dog...
1. First thing we look at is food..... and even though it may fit all the suggested parameters for an EPI dog. SOOOOOOOOOOO..... after checking into the B12 results...(you just need to make sure this is being addressed properly) and before changing the food ... yes..... i would slightly increase the enzymes by a pinch. I am assuming you are giving 1 level tsp of 6x to 1 cup of food... correct? if yes...then add 1/8 tsp more enzymes to the food.

or.

2. you can try incubating the food 1o minutes longer with the current amount of enzymes you are giving.... see if that improves things.

3. Another thing you can try (just don't do all these things at once.....pick one thing at a time and try it for a few days before trying the next thing) would be to start adding a prebiotic to the meal or a prebiotic and probiotic. Like you said there was a lot of gas, etc in the beginning... that is SID. SID never really goes away completely, but rather we do whatever we can to get it and keep it in good control. With EPI dogs, they have discovered that all EPI dogs have messed up gut flora. Not enough of a bacterial population in the gut AND the variety of gut bacteria is lacking..... so we suggest (to help keep the gut as healthy as we can) if there seems to be any issues, add a prebiotic (many of us try slippery elm powder)... or add a probiotic with prebiotics in it. We ALWAYS suggest starting off with less than half the dose and working your way up to giving a full dose over the course of a week or two.

4. If none of the above works.... then i would next suggest a course of Tylan antibiotic .... or..... a change in the food. it might be that the protein source is not the most agreeable OR sometimes it is simply that there is too much of one particular ingredient or too many carbs in the food.... you just never know with these dogs.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Curtis
Member
Posts: 7
Country: Canada
State: *
Pet name: Lucy

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Curtis » 31 Jan 2021, 17:47

Wow, love the responses folks, absolutely astonishing!

I will contact my vet tomorrow to get my tli and b12 scores and post them here. Thanks again, it is truly appreciated.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder
Posts: 1929
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Olesia711 » 31 Jan 2021, 23:05

you are welcome and PLESE keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Curtis
Member
Posts: 7
Country: Canada
State: *
Pet name: Lucy

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by Curtis » 01 Feb 2021, 15:46

Here were our test results:

TLI 2.6
Cobalamin 325
Folate >270

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 1241
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Adjust enzyme amount?

Post by jilbert57 » 01 Feb 2021, 17:33

Hi Curtis,
Thanks for posting the results. Yes I would order Wonderlabs B12 with Intrinsic factor and start with 1 or 2 caps a day. Here is a link:

https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688
If you order from Wonderlabs you get 15%off if you enter Epi4dogs15 in the coupon.
Not sure what the price is on Amazon.

I suspect the folate is >27, not >270.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jean and 89 guests