grain free food & heart issues

[wandaMaeZi]

hello its been awhile again since Ive been on forum
Maezi is almost 11 now
last year she was dx with cushings & put on trilostane which has been working well
she recent;y started being unwell so off to the vet

she has been eating NOW fresh senior for years now with no issues 2 cups day w 2 tsps dianes 6x
My vet told me they are now seeing alot of dogs coming in with heart issues that they have linked to a grain free diet so she recomends changing her food

I researched it more & found that they are speifically linking it to diets with peas lentils legumes & pototates in top 1- ingredients

so am looking for advice on this and what kind of food to try for her

thanks for any input

[Olesia711]

Hi Wanda,

It's been a long time !!!! WOW! Maezi is 11 ?!!! Time sure flew by.

Regarding the grain free foods... The FDA finally came out with a report that grain free food DOES NOT cause Cardiomyopathy...... but rather (and this is in my own words, not the FDA's) it's the crap fillers the fill the grain free food with... like peas/legumes, etc.

SO i would look at the food you are currently feeding and if it is loaded with peas/legumes... especially over loaded like with multiple ingredients of these 9pea, pea flour, pea protein, chic peas, legumes, etc...)( then i would switch to a different grain free food is Maezi was doing well on grain free food with her EPI condition.

Also... potatoes are far from being as bad as the legumes, BUT... white potatoes really are not that great.... they come from the nightshade family which is known to trigger inflammation... where as Sweet Potatoes are actually good, they come from the morning glory family not from in the same class as white potato

FYI... we actually have a page here that addresses the grain free food and cardiomyopathy scare.... and we also uploaded the most recent FDA report that debunks saying its the grain free food, but rather an overload of certain ingredients like peas and less of what the dogs really need nutrition wise.

Here is the page we have on Grain Free.... and i did include the link about grain free food does not cause cardiomyopathy:
https://epi4dogs.com/why-grainfree-foods/

Hope this helps!

[Madelon]

Wow - 11yrs old congratulations on managing her EPI so well. Sorry to hear she has been unwell - can you tell us what her symptoms are? If the poops have gone south I'm wondering if it's time to add a pinch more enzymes - lots of EPI dogs need a bit more enzymes as they age. Also wondering how her B12 levels are. Did the vet say why they are thinking this could be a DCM issue other than because of the food she is on?

[wandaMaeZi]

hello
thanks checked out the info on link about it

her food has listed --turkey-potato flour-apples-pea fibre-peas-potatoes-tomato-alfalfa-canola oil-salmon-duck-cocunut oil-eggs-flaxseed-carrots-pumpkin-sweet potaot-squash-babanas-blueberries-cranberries-blackberries-pomegranrtes-papays-lentils-brocoli & other minerlas vitamins etc

as u recall it took us forever to find a food that agreed with her tis been over 7 years on this one..

went to petstore & called a few places & went online found one maybe - canadian naturals salmon and sweet potato or Performatin Ultra

Her b12 is good ..she goes for retest cushings levels thursday as it could be meds need be tweaked - she omg gained 3 KG

syptoms were _ drinking lots - peeing lots - panting lots - huge appetite-nervous more - chew nails - vomit occasionally -licking
many of these were signs when she got cushings - so hoping maybe just increase dosage

new food .. will be challenge ..

apprecaite the input always

have to switch Tikka our 3 year old heelers food too after read her label w peas etc

wanda and maezi
& tikka

[Olesia711]

Hi Wanda..... if this food is agreeing with her..... then i would stick with it .... BUT to over come any possible deficiency....... add some more of the quality ingredients... like your own fresh human-grade baked white turkey meat

Hopefully though... these symptoms are from her Cushings condition and just need some tweaking.

Keep us posted!

BTW.... what is really interesting about the current food you are feeding is that it has alfalfa in it.... and that acts as a great prebiotic!

[Tuckaboo Pam]

OK, I'm not a reader of research, at least not in a way that makes me understand it, but I believe I came away from an article that made the following point----Peas, legumes, etc, are figuring into the total protein provided by the food, but it's not enough of the right kind of protein. So, even though it is counted, and it sounds like there is enough protein, dogs are suffering because it's the wrong kind (they need taurine, taureline?).

My question is---why can't you just add a little meat when you feed them, and bring up the level of proper protein? If the food is working great, can you just cook up some beef & put in a couple of tablespoons? Or, is it that peas are really bad for dogs? I'll bet this sounds really dumb. Sorry----Pam

[Olesia711]

hi Pam... not really a dumb question at all... if you can add fresh wholesome meat it certaily helps.
you are correct, Peas/legumes overall, although high in protein, it is not the right kind of protein for dogs... and yes, they do detract from the protein that the need......AND.... peas also tends to encourage SID even more so in our EPI dogs

kind of an interesting observation. Her on the forum, we told people to start with a low fiber content dog food (typically misnamed "grain-free" food). Well a few years ago, that meant dog food that was made with sweet potato ( and some with white potato) vs. rice, etc. and the majority of our EPI members had good luck with using the grain free foods.

Fast forward to when the dog food companies started replacing sweet potato with peas......(peas are a LOT cheaper!!) and all of a sudden we started seeing a ton of complaints on the forum with people's EPI dogs stools getting sloppy again, having diarrhea, gas, etc. and overall not doing so well anymore even though they were on the same food as before........

SO.....Fast forward to about 2 years after dog food companies started promoting dog food with peas trying to tell folks that this is great food loaded with protein, blah, blah, blah.... and research was done with mini-EPI pigs... and they found that peas was the worst carb that you can feed EPI patients and that it dramatically made small intestinal dysbiosis much worse.... and that was the "Aha!" moment.... that was what was happening to our dogs.... peas/lentils etc were wrecking havoc with our dogs guts systems!

Classic "tail wags the dog" situation.

What i have realized over the years is that a lot of times, we make an anecdotal observation... and then science comes in, researches it and proves what we observed anecdotally

[wandaMaeZi]

My vet called back today
maezi went for a stem test yesterday to test her cushings level
She came back at the very highest level of acceptable range
so with that & her symptoms she upper her trilostane from 80 to 100 mg
see how she does & retest in 2 weeks as she says is not good to increase level too high
fingers crossed poor maezi does not like vet visits at all

as for the food told her i found one with out peas,lentils potaotes etc
the salmon & sweet potato canadian naturals
she says thats a good start however studies show these "boutique foods " she wasnt sure why they referred to them as that --but says needs food with grain as well

was think mix her food and this new one half n half for now as she has been doin well on the 'now fresh'

it is so sad to see her not as well and her having so much stress to get bloodwork

thanks wanda and maezi

wondering what food some of others are feeding

[Madelon]

Hi there. I feed Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - no peas, lentils, chicken or white fish - my boy has MANY food sensitivities and it is under 4% fiber. My understanding is the reason they call them "boutique" foods is because they use proteins that are not typical - such as kangaroo, rabbit, etc. I don't think salmon should be considered "boutique" - but again just because there is grain in the food does not mean that it is going to prevent DCM. Like Olesia said, if the food you've been using works for your pup I would not change it but mixing it along with a new grain free that doesn't have peas, etc. couldn't hurt - just watch the poops. Your vet may not have seen the latest findings from the FDA regarding no connection between grain free and DCM here is a link in case you want to read it and/or share it with your vet https://www.petbusiness.com/industry-ne ... aV45LNFWtQ

Let us know how things are going when you go back in two weeks. I understand the not liking to go to the vet - my boy likes it - he LOVES people but it is VERY stressful on all of us as he is very dog reactive and barks the ENTIRE time if he sees or hears another dog.

[Melissa]

Hello! I have not been on this board for a while.....

Wandamaezi had asked what others are feeding so I thought I would share..

I have been feeding grain free foods for at least 12 years now, for all of my dogs, all sizes, all breeds. Different brands through the years-
Now that we have Koda, an EPI dog, we are buying Taste of the Wild, Pacific Stream, as recommended here. He, and my other 4, are doing fantastic!. I feed 3 times a day, and one of those meals is either a raw mix, or cooked eggs, sweet potaotes, oats, chicken, a little variety. I also add grain free canned once a day to their kibble. Koda, who recently has started the EPI protocol, with enzymes, tylan, slippery elm, etc- is 12 years old He is a very big Great Pyrenees mix, so this is very old for a dog his size....he is thriving, he has always been fed grain free. Autumn, a yellow lab, is 13, and thriving, still walking 2 hours a day, has been fed grain free for 11 years.. My little sweet beagle, Robin, she was 18 or 19 ( rescue, not sure) when she passed.
As other members here said, why not stick with the grain free food that agrees with your dog, and add fresh "human grade" meat products, eggs, sweet potatoes, etc? I also look to "DOG FOOD ADVISOR," which is a terrific website for researching foods.

The "boutique" foods are usually very high quality pet food companies- "Open Farm" comes to mind...and if I could afford it, I would always buy this. I believe they are just smaller companies that do not use the huge processing plants, or sell to the huge chains. Acana and Open Farm actually have their own farmers and fisherman, and do not buy their meats from a broker, as most other brands do. Did your vet support these types of foods, or discourage you from them?

Every suggestion I received here on this board has been helpful for Koda...and since the TOTW was recommended for him, and it's working so well, I will keep him on that. Good luck with your sweet Maezi.
And as always, thanks to all here!!