Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
simonamm
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Posts: 8
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lottie
My name: Simon

Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by simonamm » 21 Feb 2021, 14:00

We use to give her a heaped 2/3 a cup per meal twice a day. Each time we give a slightly heaped 1/2 tsp of enzyme. Food is performatrin large breed formula. We like the larger kibbles is we find it keeps her teeth cleaner.

Thanks for the tip on the enzymes and possible diseases/strategies on probiotics.

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Olesia711
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Location: North Carolina
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State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by Olesia711 » 21 Feb 2021, 17:09

Emily and Simon,

Thanks for sharing that information with us. I looked at the food.... and although 4% fiber content, there is a lot of grain in that food that you are feeding Lotta.... so i suspect that it might be the food composition that is causing the farts/gas..... HOWEVER.... that being said, because the poos sound like they are well formed...i don't think i would rush out to change the food just yet.

This is the problem/background: With EPI.... fiber can destroy the efficacy of the enzymes from anywhere between 0% to 50%. However, we have no idea from one EPI dog to the next who has what % of an issue with grain and to what degree. This is why we suggest as a "general rule" to avoid diets with a lot of grain in them- -at least in the beginning until you get the dog stable. Although once the dog is stable we do suggest to the owner, if you want to try food with grain in it (rice seems to work better then the other types of grain) then try some.

But... here is the conundrum. Certain fibers actually help correct SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) .. but it is a fine line as to how much fiber content and from what.... because (depending on the individual EPI dog) although some fiber actually helps (with SID) often fiber can actually cause a problem (with the enzymes)..... so you kind of have to figure out via trial and error after starting with a low fiber food, what appears to work best for YOUR dog.

SOOOOOOOOooooooo in your case, although there is a lot of grains in the food ingredients, the poos sound like they are well formed, so i don't think i would rush to change the food just yet, but maybe first try increasing the amount of enzymes you are using by 1/8 to 1/4 of a tsp per cup of food..... and give this about a week.... see if this appears to lessen the "gas" issue.... if it does, then this is what the problem is and the solution is more enzymes.... just give a pinch more enzymes then what you normally would.

If it doesn't help, then see if giving a pre+probiotic helps.... and if that fails, before you do Tylan.... i would try changing the food. Something with less fiber content ..... maybe 3.5% fiber. One "middle of the road" dog food that seems to work with a lot of folks is Taste of the Wild-pacific stream....but if you do decide to try a different food.... buy the smallest bag possible so that you don't waste a lot of money if it doesn't agree with Lotta.

Hope this kind of makes sense.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

simonamm
Member
Posts: 8
Country: Canada
Pet name: Lottie
My name: Simon

Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by simonamm » 22 Feb 2021, 05:52

Ok thanks. The food we are on now was the original food we had her on. Then I tried her on a lower grain food for 2 months and we did not notice a significant change so we went back to the original which is lower cost. But I think since we have gone back she has been gassier and hungrier. I know the other food works so I see no harm in going back and rebalancing the food and enzymes. I have already ordered the slippery elm but will hold off using it until I see if we can get the food right. Thanks.

Tuckaboo Pam
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My name: Pam H.

Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 22 Feb 2021, 19:03

Simon, do you use 6X or 8X enzymes from Diane? I ask because if it's 6X then a heaping 2/3 cup of food would need a heaping 2/3 teaspoon of enzymes. That's probably why Olesia suggested maybe adding more enzymes. Me, I want to know the exact measurement of everything, so I'm pretty exact. Instead of a heaping 2/3 cup, maybe use 3/4 cup, then 3/4 teaspoon enzymes...IF you use 6X. 8X is different. You have to do math.

Also, I'm a huge fan of slippery elm, but I think it took awhile to show results. I also added proviable, slowly, per advice from the forum, which is currently working great. Glad you're here!---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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jilbert57
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Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by jilbert57 » 23 Feb 2021, 09:25

Simon, Lottie is a cutie!

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Madelon
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Location: Nashville, TN
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State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Still Ravenous even with Enzymes and Wonderlabs B12

Post by Madelon » 28 Feb 2021, 09:34

Hi I just wanted to check in to see how things are going.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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