New member - seeking advice

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
sue_ru
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Ru
My name: Suzanne

New member - seeking advice

Post by sue_ru » 25 Feb 2021, 09:03

Hi everyone, first I wanted to say thank you for all of this information. I've been using this resource to read up on a lot of things over the past few days. This has been very helpful.

I have a 2yr old shepherd mix who has been having on and off issues for 6-8 months. We adopted her when she was 6 months old. We've been to the vet, done GI panel that was sent to A&M (vet said levels were in normal range), checked for blockages, Addisons disease & stress test, taken a heavy dose of panacur.... nothing is coming back with any clues as to what is going on. She's tried three different foods (one prescription) and have not had any luck. I have been transitioning her over to a new food to try something that is not chicken based (Lamb and Rice) from a bland diet of rice, turkey and pumpkin, and we are about half way through a very slow transition. I am working with a vet's office I really like and they have been thorough with testing, checking in etc, but I am looking for help on where to go next and what to ask them.

The symptoms I am seeing lately are grumbling stomach, which brings along a mucousy diarrhea that looks like intestinal lining? (I do have a photo if that would help?) Sorry, I know that is gross. She's also had voluminous stool over the past few days that are yellowish in color, sometimes with a small mucous blood spot at the end. She's had a great appetite throughout, but does not want to eat when she has the grumbles. There have been no accidents in the house. These episodes seem to happen every 2 weeks.

She's very thin... she's been thin since she was about 10 months old. We thought it was just her growing into herself, and due to how active she is....but she has not been able to gain. I'd say shes a body score 2 or 2.5? You can see ribs, spine and hip bones. We have tried feeding her more kibble in the past (5 cups a day)but it seemed to go right through her. She begs for dinner and breakfast and always seems hungry. She's been around 49-53lbs (still underweight at 53), now sitting at 50-51.

Right now, she's on forti-flora to help with digestion, but still gets the grumbles and bad stools. She still is happy, plays with my other dog, and is fairly high energy, etc.....

I am thinking of asking the vet to try Tylan powder. I've also ordered some enzymes to see if she can gain some weight with help from those. It seems to me to be something like colitis, IBD or SIBO?

After all that, I guess my main question is... should I try the digestive enzyme (Pantenex should be here by the weekend) to see if it helps with digestion, stool, and weight gain, or should I go to the vet and see if I can get a prescription for tylan powder first?

If anyone has any thoughts, it would be much appreciated!!

Sorry this is long, and thank you so much for reading.


*edited for typos and clarity

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 Feb 2021, 14:32

Suzanne, you have nothing to apologize for. The more information you share, the better the help your doggy can get from the staff & other members!

First off, welcome. We're glad you are here. When you say your vet did a GI panel, does that mean they did the fasting blood test for EPI & it was negative? I am a shepherd mix mom, too, and some of the things you have said were exactly what Tucker's symptoms were. All I can say is, check back often, because someone on staff will look at this soon & they will have a bunch of questions for you. I would hate to start telling you what has worked for us, in case it's not pertinent.

You might want to get a head start, and post the test results, which staff always asks for, if possible. Also include what & how much you are feeding, and how often. After Madelon, Olesia, Barb, Jean, Jill, etc., respond, I will come back and see if I have anything to add. Just know you are in the right place, and you will be getting so much help! I feel your pain. Take care---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

sue_ru
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Ru
My name: Suzanne

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by sue_ru » 25 Feb 2021, 14:58

Hi Pam! Thanks so much for the reply.

We did do a 12 hour fast and the TLI/Cobolamine/Folate test that was sent to Texas A&M about a month ago. When the results were in, our vet says everything came back normal... but never shared the numbers with me. I think I will call and see if they can get me the results in a PDF. Once I get a hold of that, I will post it and can give more details on feeding, etc!

Before that was a CBC/Profile 21/T4 test with the IDEXX Cortisol test as well. She was borderline for Addisons, so we did the ACTH stress test, with a negative result.

Thank you so much for your time, it is appreciated.

sue_ru
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Ru
My name: Suzanne

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by sue_ru » 25 Feb 2021, 17:34

My wonderful vets sent me over the results! Here is some more info that may be helpful. It does seem that these levels aren't on the low end, though.

Cobalamin Fasting - 801 ng/L
Folate Fasting - Pending
TLI Fasting - 19.5ug/L

Here's what I am feeding now (it's a bit complicated!)
Was feeding American Natural Premium Sensitive Care (because my other dog who has a sensitive belly is doing well on this), then to Hill's prescription GI Biome, now on a bland diet of rice, turkey and pumpkin and switching to Natural Balance L.I.D. Lamb and Rice. She has had issues on all 3 of these so far, though we haven't fully transitioned to the Lamb and Rice. We're 50-75% of the way there. Her issues have not been as bad on this diet as the previous two. Feeding 3 to 3.5 cups a day spread through 3 meals. With the Sensitive care and Hills, she was closer to 4 cups a day. Was feeding 5 for weight gain but nothing came of that.

Thank you!!

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by Madelon » 25 Feb 2021, 18:47

Hi Sue and welcome to our EPI family. I'm so sorry your pup isn't doing well and obviously you are beside yourself with worry as we all have been.

Thank you for posting the test results. I must say I'm perplexed by the Folate testing saying pending - I've never seen that before. You might follow up with the vet to see if they have received the results of that test yet. When was the test done?

Just a little story about my boy as it sounds familiar and might give you some perspective - when my boy was 3mos old he was tested for EPI due to chronic diarrhea - the results were TLI 16, B12 was 8?? (bad memory LOL) and Folate was over 24 - he was diagnosed with SID and treated with antibiotics. He did fine and reached 95lbs by the time he was 9mos old. At 10mos old he started to slowly lose weight - then at 13mos old he was having pale yellow cow pie poops, eating his poops and had lost 20lbs! He was tested again and this time the TLI was less than .4, B12 was 406 and Folate was over 24. My point is it takes time for the pancreas to atrophy and it could possibly be that when you tested your dog the pancreas is technically functioning fine but he could be headed towards possible EPI.

If it's been several months since the initial EPI test you might consider testing again.

With what you've described I would go ahead and try the enzymes - use 1 level teaspoon per cup of kibble and mix in a little luke warm water then add kibble and sit 20-30 minutes before serving.

You might also consider trying Sport Dog Food Elite - it's a grain free kibble that meets the EPI recommendations - my boy has a TON of food sensitivities and he's done really well on the Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - there is no chicken, fish, peas or legumes.

Yes I would definitely go ahead and ask your vet for a prescription for Tylan - we recommend giving it for 45 days and then slowly wean off - however - before you start to wean off, maybe half to 3/4 of the way through the 45 days you can introduce a probiotic with a prebiotic such as Proviable (requires a prescription from the vet) but start out with 1/2 the dose and watch the poops.

If the symptoms continue then I would definitely consider retesting for EPI. As you said it could be IBD as well which is why the Folate score is necessary - a low folate can indicate a possible food sensitivity or IBD.

Hang in there :)
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

sue_ru
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Ru
My name: Suzanne

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by sue_ru » 25 Feb 2021, 19:14

Madelon, thank you so much for taking the time. The time and care that every one takes here is amazing.

She was tested January 19th of this year. I just asked the vet for the results today, so maybe they never received the Folate number? Odd.

The one symptom Ru does not show (yet?) is the yellow cow pie type plops.. hers are usually darker in color and not the yellow that I am hearing about.

I'm sorry to hear about your pup but it sounds like he is doing better now and is in great hands. I think it would make sense for me to re test in a few months if things don't start getting better.

I am certainly looking forward to trying the enzyme. I think I'll give that a go and see if there are any results from that. I am going to try and keep her on the Natural Balance L.I.D. for now if I can get her to switch over to it and will also keep the Sport Dog brand in my back pocket if I need to switch again. I think I'll compare the ingredients/analysis between the two, as well!

So long story short - I will start w/ the enzymes once I receive them... wait a while to see how it goes and then try Tylan... just so I can see what helps and what doesn't and not try too much all at once?

Thank you so much, again. It is great to have some advice and different things to try from people who have been through similar situations.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Feb 2021, 19:40

HI Suzanne,

SO sorry your dog is having these issues and so far they haven't figured out what is going on.

I agree with trying the Tylan..... since this is not EPI (or at least not yet) the tummy grumbling is indicative of possible SID which can happen with other health conditions, not just EPI.

Just be sure to start with 1 level tsp of the enzymes per 1 cup of food. Moisten the food so that the enzymes are not sitting on dry food and then mix. Let the enzymes incubate on the food for about 20 minutes (this helps avoid any possible mouth sores... and sometimes actually helps absorption process).before serving.

Let us know if this helps.... and please feel free to contact us and ask any question.

From what you are describing, id be very interested in learning what the Folate score is ... and if it comes in at 7.7 or less which would indicate small proximal intestinal disease which often displays with a lot of EPI symptoms. ANyway... if this is what is going on.... sometimes the enzymes actually help, but a lot of times, it is like a severe food allergy and sometimes a hydrolyzed food is what does the trick...............

Please keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by Barb » 25 Feb 2021, 20:25

Hello, Suzanne,

I am sorry your pup has not been feeling well. Hopefully, you will get to the bottom of what is going on. One thing I wanted to suggest that always helped us with Kolby is keeping a log/journal. You may already be doing this, but basically it is recording everything you give Ru each day, the amounts and the resulting poos. There is something about seeing the information in writing that can help us to see what is working and what needs to be changed or adjusted. Sometimes we can see patterns that we might not have seen if we hadn't written it down. You can use a blank log form from our website or just keep a notebook.

It is so hard to see our pups struggling. Hang in there. Usually, solutions begin to emerge as we get more information.

Barb

sue_ru
Member
Posts: 6
Country: United States
State: Vermont
Pet name: Ru
My name: Suzanne

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by sue_ru » 25 Feb 2021, 21:01

HI Barb and Olesia - thank you so much for your replies.

Thanks for the reminder on keeping a journal, I have done that inconsistently and should remember to keep it up.

Thank you for the recommendation of Tylan and the instructions on the enzymes.. I am really looking forward to helping Ru and trying a few things out. I'll also try and get to the bottom what ever happened to the Folate on the lab results.

I will keep you all updated - thank you again so much for all of the help. I feel there is hope!

Suzanne

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: New member - seeking advice

Post by Olesia711 » 26 Feb 2021, 20:04

Suzanne..... i also meant to mention to please be sure to always share our recommendations with Ru's vet .... things go better when everyone is on the same page.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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