When treatment stops working

[Belladownunder]

Hi Everyone,

We're only new here but have been referring back to all your information so much since our 3yr old (Bella - GSD) diagnosis approx 1 year ago. So...Thank You! We are in NSW Australia.

We have had her on 2 cups of kibble (Taste of the wild - Venison) morning and night, with 3 x Creon 10000 tablets (sprinkled over with a bit of water) and a B powder supplement in the morning.

She was doing really well, even getting back up to 30kg! But then a month or so ago something changed. She started to lose weight again, her poos became less firm, and she was eating her own faeces again (not actually sure if this ever fully stopped).

We went back to the vet and got her on a course of antibiotics, changed her food (Royal Canine Gastrointestinal Health), and went to 4 x Creon 10000 tablets per meal.

We have also given her B12 injections each time she's had antibiotics.

She has gotten quite thin again and we are stumped on what to do next! We have had a couple of vets now and none have been really helpful, they just don't know much about it!

Has anyone got any advice on what to do next? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Lauren and Justin

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Lauren, I was going to say B12, but you've got that covered, so I'm just commenting to send you back to the top of the list. --- Pam

[Olesia711]

Hi Lauren~

So sorry to hear this..... hopefully we can help but will need more details.

This B12 powder supplement..... exactly what is the name of it, so we can check up on it to see if it is correct potency and what is the exact measurement that you giving daily ? If B12 is insufficient, B12 needs to be given for life... once you bring it back up to an "upper-mid range" then going forward you need to work out a "maintenance" dose..

Are you serving the food immediately (since it is CREON) ?

Good that you tried increasing the CREON.... some dogs actually go up to CREON 25 per 1 cup of food, but before we go there..... lets look at some other aspects.....

REgarding Antibiotics for SID.. exactly what antibiotics has your vet prescribed, the dose amount and for how long. Ideally what you want your vet to give your dog is Tylan (Tylosin Tartrate Soluble powder 100 grams) ....

Another thing to consider is that your dog may have developed a food sensitivity.... in which case, (once we work thru the above possibilities) is to try a true hydrolyzed food.... what we suggest to try first is "Ultamino" by ROyal Canine. The food that you are feeding... does it say "Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Gastrointestinal Low Fat Dry Dog Food" on the package? if so, this is not hydrolyzed food from what i can tell

How is the appetite? Any gas, vomiting, burping?

[Belladownunder]

Thank you so much for your replies!

Olesia, the B supplement is 'vetsense B-complex' powder. We give about 2g once daily sprinkled over her food.

We are currently serving her food immediately. We had read that sometimes leaving it for a bit can help the enzymes to work but we didnt really see a difference (we tried this very early on).

I just looked up what antibiotic they put her on....Metronidazole she was on 1 &1/2 tablets twice daily. I actually thought it was Tylosin. Maybe that's our problem?

The new food was recommended by the vet.....which makes me think that's wrong too It is the one you mentioned.

Her tummy still makes gurgling noises but not as loud as they used to be. She does have some flatulence but no burping or vomiting. However she does eat a lot of grass!

This is such a confusing condition!

[Olesia711]

Thanks for the additional details.

THat could be the problem.... even before the recent research no says NOT to use Metronidazole for chronic gastrointestinal issues.... when it was used, it did not have a very good track record for alleviating SID...... this is where you should be able to buy Tylan in AUS:
https://www.theanimalpharmacy.com.au/pr ... -110g.html

I would swap out the Metro for Tylan first before changing anything else.

So... i looked into the B12 powder you are using.....


It looks like there is 0.5 grams of B12 in 1 scoop... and if you are using 2 scoops, that should be 1.0 grams of B12
If my math is correct, 1 gram = 1 milligram.
Based on the above..... an EPi dog that need B12 should be given the below amount according to their weight:

B12 powder.jpg (42.12 KiB) Viewed 2223 times

so i don't think you are giving enough.... BUT.... i also cannot figure out what kind of B12 this powder is...we are often cautioned NOT to use a combination of B complex vitamins because then the B12 portion is not potent enough. Also.... we have noticed that B12 thru the digestive system is often not as well utilized unless there is some intrinsic factor included. Technically old research states that the intrinsic factor needs to be species specific, but in practical application (and proven via individual B12 blood tests by before and after) we are noticing that oral B12 is better utilized in our EPI dogs when given with intrinsic factor, even if the intrinsic factor is from pigs. If you are willing, what i would recommend is ordering Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12. You can email the company directly to make sure they can ship to AUS.
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688

Regarding the food..... that is just a digestive food for most dogs, but alas.... as you probably figured out by now, our EPI dogs don't really fall into the normal category...
However.... i first try changing the antibiotic to Tylan.
If you do not see any positive results within a week at the most...THEN... i would look at changing this food.... and try a true HYDROLYZED food, and like i recommended above.... the first one i would try would be "Ultamino" by Royal Canin

[Belladownunder]

Wow, thank you so so much!

I will get onto changing the antibiotic straight away! And I think we will try changing to that B12 as well.

You're right, they're such complex beings aren't they?! We will leave the food for now but look into the one you posted for the future.

We have a one year old little girl, and it's been quiet the juggling act trying to figure out Bella's needs as well....especially when we were given so much wrong information from the vet!

So honestly, thank you! You have been so amazingly helpful!

[Madelon]

Hi and welcome to our forum. The B12 jumped out at me as well - it also looked like you stated you were only giving shots when giving the antibiotic which can lead to problems as the B12 needs to be given for life and not just when being treated with antibiotics. If WonderLabs can't ship to Australia Chemeyes can and they have the same B12 that WonderLabs has - it contains Intrinsic Factor which help with B12 absorption https://www.chemeyes.co.uk/product/vita ... ic-factor/

Chemeyes also has a high potency powder enzyme similar to EnzymeDiane's (which most of us use) that can be shipped to Australia in case you're thinking about giving that a try.

If WonderLabs can ship to you, use code EPI4DOGS15 at checkout and you'll get 20% off of your order.

Keep us posted on how things are going.

[Belladownunder]

Thank you!

Alright, this is all my task for the day!

We will let you know how it goes!

Cheers