Recent diagnosis, struggling with making progress

[Ingathedog]

Hi,

Our poops have gone downhill this week and we are worse that the photos now.

She is going for a b12 shot on Saturday - is it better to do a supplement with food?
Wonderland b12 doesn't seem easy to get here in Canada with longer shipping times and unknown duty costs. I did find it on Amazon but the shipping window is vague and may be over a month. If the border reopens at some point we will have more options to order to pick up at a point there.

I've been trying to find slippery elm with difficulty also for the brand's recommended. It's it ok to use another brand from a health store?
I've been keeping a log but haven't noticed and patterns or changes that would have led us to the current situation. Her food is split into 4+ meals a day. Her poops look bad and have increased slightly from 2-3 to 4-5.

Part of the reason we are struggling is because I am still recovering from a prepandemic head injury. And now my partner fell on the ice in the backyard last week and ended up with a back injury and concussion. Lists and keeping track of things we can do but problem solving is not our strong point right now.

Does this poop look like a SID issue? We have been on the Tylan antibiotics for over a month now.

[Barb]

Hi Jennie,

I am so sorry that you and your partner are dealing with injuries. I am sure you are going through a lot right now. Please take care of yourselves. I hope that you both make a complete recovery.

Inga is a sweetie. I hope she can stabilize soon. I am wondering if you were able to try the Prescription food that Olesia recommended. We had a lot of trouble stabilizing Kolby and eventually, we had to use the Royal Canin and that worked for him
They have even better products now than when we were doing this, so you might want to give the hydrolized food a try.

I have not heard of B12 giving a dog loose stools, but as Olesia said, run it by your vet to try a little less dosage. He can advise you on that. However, we had difficulty with Probiotics with Kolby. They gave him loose stools. So keep an eye on that.

Let us know how Inga is doing ......and you and your partner, too.

Barb.

[Olesia711]

Hi Jennie,

So sorry things are going downhill

IN addition t the typical culprits that cause lousy/loose/cow-pile like light colored stools in EPI dogs, but especially if they are getting the right amount of enzymes and the right kind of enzymes..... sometimes that is an indication that the diet that is not agreeing optimally with that individual dog..... no matter how good the food is and even if it worked for some other EPI dogs..... ANYWAY.... this in turn can trigger an even nastier SID reaction then before...... SOOOOOOOOoooooo trying a different food would be another thing to try......... and... if you (or your vet) suspects a food intolerance... then the next food i would try would be a prescription true hydrolyzed food. We typically recommend to first try "Ultamino" by Royal Canin.

Also...... ask your vet to please read the EPI research on the secondary bile acids issues with EPI dogs, cause the bile acid is connected to SID and SID is connected to EPI... everything is all inter-related.... and i know with a lot of EPI dogs, they need to take omeprazole. SO, even though INga is not displaying any acid-like reaction..... i am wondering if, because of the very light color of the stools, if there is some bile issue going on that hasn't yet come to the forefront and if she would benefit from trying some Omeprazole. here is the link to the bile acid article: https://epi4dogs.com/wp-content/uploads ... e-Acid.pdf.


Next... just in case you are giving a probiotic.... Barb brought up a very good point.... some dogs just cannot handle probiotics and no matter how many brands you try in whatever strength- -loose stools happen. My dog Izzy was not able to handle any probiotics, no matter how "great" they were... BUT she did fine with prebiotics... and i used SLippery Elm powder. And YES! you can get any brand of SLippery Elm powder, just get the powder, not the capsules. Check your Canadian Amazon and see if they offer the "NOW" brand of SLippery Elm powder..... as that is also a good product.

Regarding the B12 capsules.... since it would be a real hassle getting the B12 from US to Canada (Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12) with time/customs and extra costs..... then maybe just do the shots via your vet... but ask your vet if they can teach you how to give the shots at home and if they will sell you a vial of the B12 serum. This would save you money AND it won't be so stressful for Inga... always having to go to the vet for a shot- -but do ask if it is possible that with some dogs if B12 can cause loose stools...... and let us know what he/she says... i am interested in learning if it is the same as it can be for some people.

Or.... talk to your pharmacist and ask if they have any 1000mcg Methylcobalamin B12 capsules with folate in it. I strongly suspect you cannot get any B12 capsules with the intrinsic factor in them too.... but maybe ask the pharmacists if they know of any... if not... and if you still want to try B12 pills.... see if your pharmacists can help you by getting you 1000mcg B12 pills with folate in them..... and try it with your pup.... They may or may not work since the intrinsic factor will not be included.... but wroth trying as we know for a fact that B12 without intrinsic factor worked with some dogs, but almost all did much better with the B12 pills that included the intrinsic factor.... but still worth trying though if you want.

So sorry to hear that both you and your partner have been injured.... geesh.... between trying to get Inga straightened out AND dealing with your injuries you all sure have your hands full Hopefully all 3 of you will start to feel better and soon too!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couple more things....... sometimes when the food is not optimal but you are kind of stuck using that particular food for a reason... sometimes you can compensate things by using a little more enzymes with the not so perfect food.

Also... and i think i may have already mentioned this, feed smaller portions just more meals- -sometimes this helps.

Do try to get some slippery elm.... and if this doesn't work... (thankfully it is cheap!)
And last but not least.... with some dogs, they pick up on stress and the poos will get sloppy just from stress alone..... however.... looking at the poo pics.... i think, even if stress is triggering some of it, i do think something else responsible.

I know we are not giving you an absolute answer, but unfortunately with EPI, you sometimes have to try things to figure out why your dog is not responding as expected. ... so i do hope something that we are recommending will help..... but over all.... my concentration at this point would be to focus on the food.... see if something about the diet is the current underlying problem..........

Please Keep us posted!

[Ingathedog]

Thank you all so much.
Tomorrow she is having another B12 shot, and I'm picking up some of the Royal Canin food. I found some slippery elm powder online at a health food store here but not the now brand, but we'll try it.
I hope to post a positive update now.

[Olesia711]

I am so hoping for a good turn of events.... just remember though.... try each thing one-at-a-time.... so that way you will know which if anything is helping or hindering.
Do Keep us posted!

[Madelon]

Hi Jennie - I"m so sorry you're having such a rought time right now. I was going to tell you yes - you can use any brand of slippery elm bark powder just be sure it's the powder and not capsules.

As for the B12, while you are trying Olesia's suggestions, you might reach out to Suj who owns Chemeyes https://www.chemeyes.co.uk/ - she also carries a B12 pill with Intrinsic Factor - she is in the U.K. - not sure if might be able to get it to you faster than WonderLabs - but it's worth a shot - she's amazing.

Please keep us posted on how things are going - fingers and paws crossed for some good news.

[Ingathedog]

I have a question about the slippery elm -
On the epi4dogs website it recommends giving with breakfast and dinner -
below are weight based recommendations - so our dog would fit in the 1/2 tsp category by current weight -
Is that amount of slippery elm per day or per use? - do I split the 1/2 tsp over the two servings or give 1/2 tsp per meal for breakfast and dinner?

[Tuckaboo Pam]

Jennie, I think I read the same thing you did, and I see what you mean, but typically if you were supposed to split the amount, that advice would be included....I THINK, and so sorry if I'm wrong! They also say that with slippery elm, sometimes less is more, so you may need to tweak what you do. Tucker weighs 80 pounds, and he happens to do well on 1/4 teaspoon, twice a day. This is less than the recommended dose.----Pam

[Ingathedog]

Thank you!

[Olesia711]

Hi Jennie,

Pam is correct.... that is the amount you give with the meals.... HOWEVER..... less is often better.
SO....(for example) even though it suggests 1/2 tsp for 80lb..... i would START with 1/4 tsp with the breakfast and dinner meal and see how it goes.... if the lesser dose appears to help, jsut not enough.... THEN i would increase the dose to the recommended dose.

If you give too much (and ... for example.....this CAN vary from one 80lb dog to another 80lb dog depending on their gut flora.. or rather messed up gut flora) if you give too much for that dog to start with, too much slippery elm can give loose stools.... so then you will never know if the loose stools are because the SLippery Elm is not helping OR if the loose stools are because you gave too much SLippery Elm.

I know this is probably making your head spin.... but this is kind of how we figure out what helps or hinders getting our dogs EPI conditions straightened out.