Weimy Pup

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
WeimyPup

Weimy Pup

Post by WeimyPup » 13 Mar 2021, 19:08

Hi all, I am joining the forum, from Torquay in Victoria/Australia.

My gorgeous Weimaraner puppy [Franki] was diagnosed with EPI when she was just a few months old. Thankfully we got on top of it as she was suffering, severely undersize and without energy before we introduced enzymes (and slippery elm). Now she's almost one and I have a few questions for you all given you've been living with an EPI dog for years.
Franki is small, she's stopped looking gaunt but is undeniably smaller than her siblings. I'm constantly trying to keep weight on her but I feel like that may be ongoing. Would you say that EPI dogs that have had EPI since almost birth are commonly underdeveloped/undersize?

She also sometimes has a bit of a stinky butt, its apparently not gland related but its pretty nasty, has anyone come across this please?
Also as I spend my days monitoring her poop, its not uncommon for a poop to be yellowish - this hasn't ever been solved?
Lastly a nasty habit set in, Franki has a beautiful big brother, the opposite of her he is the biggest healthiest beast you'll ever see - she's been caught eating his poop (gag). Is this an EPI thing or more just a puppy thing? I thought maybe because she's still a bit hungry yet her meals are quite large.

All in all she's doing amazingly, she's an absolute trooper there's just a few physical and behavioural things still causing us concern and the vet has no idea.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 13 Mar 2021, 19:37

Hi, Aimee, and welcome to the forum. It does sound like your pup could use a little tweaking, so check back often & I'm sure you will hear from experienced staff members. Why don't you go ahead & post what her test results were when she was diagnosed, and tell us what she eats---how much & how often, what supplements you give her, what kind of enzymes you use, and how you prepare her food. Just a FEW things! Any and all information is helpful when trying to figure out the best plan. Thanks!----Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

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Olesia711
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Olesia711 » 13 Mar 2021, 20:34

Hi Aimee and welcome to you and Franki!

Hopefully i can answer some of your questions... so... regarding Franki's smaller size... i do not know if this is why Franki is smaller than her siblings.... BUT... YES.... it might be due to EPI....... if EPI starts happening in the body during certain developmental growth stages, the lack of....or insufficient absorption of nutrients can indeed cause smaller body or certain body parts. For example, mine had full blown EPI when she was 1 yr and 3 months old.... EPI takes time to happen.... when full grown, she was smaller than her liter mates AND she had tiny teeth.... my vet said that that could have very well happened because her EPI may have been in process during that particular body growth period.


Regarding keeping the weight on. Technically we suggest folks to feed their EPI dog approx 150% of what their body normally would require until they replenish the weight that they lost. However, some of these EPI dogs just tend to need more food than normal to maintain a good weight (my 35 lb EPI dog at twice as much as my 60lb dog!) .so..... Franki might just need more food than what you think.

The only thing with a stinky butt that i know of is anal gland issues.... other than that, i don't have a clue. sorry.

If Franki is eating her older brother's poop.... then she is not getting all the nutrients her body is craving... so... i have two thoughts on this. First.... when you feed her older brother, try adding a tsp of crushed pineapple. Supposedly it tastes good going in, but it suspected to be nasty tasting coming out the other end. ... this does work for some (although not all)... try it and hopefully it will deter Franki.
The other thought on this is that the enzymes are not completely doing their job. What kind of enzymes are you using? In Australia, to my knowledge you cannot access porcine pancreatin powder. Enzyplex is the wrong enzymes as it is plant based and doesn't work well enough (not potent enough)... so we recommend Aussie folks to use CREON enzymes for their dogs. CREON is a human drug, readily available world wide for people dealing with EPI. If you are not using the right enzymes this would also explain why Franki is not keeping the weight on and wy she is hungry, eating inappropriate things/other poop, and why her poop is yellowish................ Light colored poo can be from not enough enzymes, light colored food, or the most common thing, SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) whish ALL dogs with EPI have, but we only treat when needed. Not enough enzymes will cause SID to get out of control.

If you are giving CREON, and if you are giving enough, then the light colored poos could still be SID, and the way to address it is:
1. first try a prebiotic (you are already doing this with SLippery Elm)
2. If it helps but is not working good enough, then add a probiotic
3. if a probiotic helps with the prebiotic but is still not good enough... and if it is not due to a diet that is not agreeable, then we suggest Tylan, an antibiotic to treat the SID. It is now advised to NOT use Metronidazole for any chronic gastrointestinal condition....

If you can give us more information, like what enzymes you are using, how much, how you are preparing it, the food you are feeding and if Franki was ever tested for B12 , that would be really helpful.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

WeimyPup

Re: Weimy Pup

Post by WeimyPup » 14 Mar 2021, 00:04

Thank you, what a remarkable reply!

I will get her results for posting but regarding her diet and enzymes I can tell you she is on CREON 10,000 and she has 3 capsules sprinkled on each meal - generally 3 meals per day (a smaller lunch).
I soak Frankis food (mainly due to bloat which she is susceptible to due to her breed).

She has a combo of dry food all grain free (I recently added the bison/venison mix to try and help her weight). She also has sardines for breakky (for her coat) and I add some cooked chicken and steamed veggies in with dinner.

I supplement her food with a tsp of slippery elm.

I understand she might have more appetite due to the EPI but it seems like she eats SO MUCH MORE than her boofhead big brother who runs a lot more than her and I would have thought needs more fuel but perhaps this is my ignorance. She also does some mega-poops. My uneducated brain suspects her enzyme level needs to be altered - increased. I'll look at the probiotic combo too before we reintroduce Tylan which is a nightmare to administer as you would all know.

She was never tested for B12 levels, from reading this page I am of the belief this may be required.

there's so much to take in and consider, i really just want my little girl to have the absolute best life and appreciate all your advice!!!

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Olesia711
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Olesia711 » 14 Mar 2021, 08:26

Ahhh... so she IS on CREON..... that is good!

WHen you soak the food, i am assuming you soak the food first.... and then just before giving it to her, then you sprinkle the CREON on it and serve it to her immediately. The CREON pellets should not be allowed to "melt" in the food...... just double checking with you that this is what is going on.

i love the fact that you are giving her sardines too for much needed omega 3's... EXCELLENT!!!!! I do that too with my last remaining dog, Lulu.
And what you are doing with the combo dry dog food and real food is exactly what i did with my EPI gal... and it worked perfectly.

SO.... here are a couple of possibilities:
1. depending on how much chicken you are giving and what the current dry food is..... it is possible that the light colored poo is a result of the food you are feeding ... or not.
2. However... the large volume of poo means something is not agreeing 100%. What i have noticed is that sometimes too many carbs in a food can result in large volume poos. .... and the culprit is usually the dry food brand... often if you change the brand of commercial food to something with less fiber, it helps.
3. but now.... what REALLY jumped out at me is the amount of SLippery Elm that you are giving...... this is what i would alter first. too much slippery elm can also cause loose stools... for a full grown Weimaraner (avg 70 lbs), you would start out with just a 1/2 tsp. if i understand your post correctly, you are giving a full tsp ???? and Franki is still a puppy. SO..... what i would do is reduce the amount of SLippery Elm ... here are the suggested guidelines.... and see if this makes a difference: https://epi4dogs.com/slippery-elm/
4. if that doesn't help, then the next thing i would do is change the dry food, which you are in the process of doing.
5. And about that B12! It is possible also that Franki's B12 is low.....and sometimes this so you will want to take care of this too. Over 80% of all dogs with EPI have insufficient B12 (it needs to be in the upper mid range). Best to test the dogs B12, but if not possible, then i would supplement. Either with simple serum shots or high dose B12 pill . We found that oral WOnderlabs "Pet Factor B12" works best because it uses Methylcobalamin B12 along with Intrinsic Factor (although according to old research this should not make a difference unless species specific however, we found via multiple individual B12 blood test results that it DOES make a difference. Here is the link to WOnderlabs and i think they will ship to AUS: https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688 ... but... also check on AUS Amazon because Wonderlabs also sells this on Amazon.
6. and last but not least... if all of the above does not make a difference/improvement..... then we are dealing with SID :( i already mapped out the process of tackling SID to get it under better control....so... what i would start with in Franki's case would be a probiotic .... it just might get SID under control so that you won't have to use an antibiotic/Tylan.
7. oh, and one more possibility... you might be giving too much CREON..... 3 capsules=30,000..... usually with grown dogs, we start with 10,000 and often they need a pinch more.... but usually the most that is given is CREON 25,000.... there have only been a few cases where the dog received more than 25,000 per meal.

Take pictures of the poos when making changes and compare them... this will REALLY help you determine what is or is not helping/hindering.
Keep a journal / EPI log.

And with all these suggestions, remember to just try one thing at a time.... give it a few days 3 to 5 .. before trying the next change.

Keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Madelon
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Madelon » 14 Mar 2021, 11:06

Hi! When I got my Doc (German Shepherd) he was the runt of the litter - he had horrible coccidia and bladder infection at 8weeks old. That cleared up and then he developed SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) which was cleared up. He began losing weight at 10mos old (so obviously EPI was already in play) and was diagnosed with EPI at 13mos old. With all of that, everyone who meets him comments he is the biggest German Shepherd they've ever seen LOL. So yes in some cases with EPI being at a young age it can cause issues with development like Olesia said and in some cases like ours it doesn't matter.

I too am going to jump on the B12 bandwagon - it's critical to properly managing EPI. As long as there are no other underlying medical conditions where too much B12 can be a problem, I would go ahead and start supplementing with the WonderLabs pills while you wait on the test results. If you need Tylan if you're dealing with SID be sure to use if for 45days and slowly wean off.

Keep a detailed journal of everything you give and the resulting poops so you'll know what works and what doesn't. Also, the best thing about EPI - these dogs tend to have a much stronger bond with their human than other dogs :)
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

WeimyPup

Re: Weimy Pup

Post by WeimyPup » 15 Mar 2021, 01:50

Amazing, wow I've got a lot to do.
It's so much to get your head around but I think I'll just map out what we do now and what options/ variations can be implemented.
Thank you both for your suggestions, I know we'll nail it.... eventually!

As for the poop photos, they're is a wonderfully dedicated album on my phone specifically for Frankis poops :D

I'll be sure to let you know how this all goes. My main issue now is that I'm overdosing the enzyme.

Also I checked the measuring spoon in the slippery elm bag and my error its a hslf tsp...

Waiting for the vet to call back re b12 results.

Thank you thank you thank you

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Jean
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Jean » 15 Mar 2021, 07:58

Welcome from the uk

strange question , what is the smell like ?, is it an acidy smell ?

might be worth while getting her to the vet for a sample taken from her bottom ?, is it definitely from there ?

Poop eating usually means undigested food, which could mean the enzymes need tweaking, are you supplementing b12 , it is essential to digestion

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

as to weight, it took me a couple of years to get Kara's weight to increase , she was pathetically thin the rule of thumb is to feed 50% over and above what the food bag says for the weight the dog SHOULD be over as many meals as you can fit in, all enzymed, we addded a meal of scrambled eggs and mashed potato , again enzymed, Kara was on 5 meals a day for months

we got her from 39 pounds to 90 pounds , this she kept on till we lost her in 2019, please dont get hung up on this, just get the regime organised, keep a diary, and photographs, we kept a scrap book which is in the loft

ask away , a question not asked is an oportunity lost

Take care and stay safe


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Olesia711
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Re: Weimy Pup

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Mar 2021, 20:40

Ahhhh Franki is a cutie! (just noticed your profile pic.

Yea there is a lot of "if's, and's and buts to managing EPI..... but just map things out and only try one thing at a time, and watch the poo out-put.... this is the bst non-invasive way to find out what helps/hinders.... and what works or doesn't :)

Keep us posted!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

WeimyPup

Re: Weimy Pup

Post by WeimyPup » 18 Mar 2021, 21:32

Thanks Jean, how can i describe the smell, its almost fishy....i know right, its very discreet but once you notice it, its hard to not smell. ANd yep its definitely from the butt. I think it comes when she needs to poop.

I'm looking into the B12 now.

You've all taken such a pragmatic approach to your dogs treatment, i'll definitely get more organised re photos and diary.

I struggle most days to feed her 3 meals but we try (due to work committments etc). The eggs/ mash sounds like a good idea, and good fat for her. I'm not overly concerned with her weight i just really want to make sure she has energy and feels satisfied. She's such a tough kid though given a pretty raw hand dealt as a puppy.

The profile pic gives you an idea how darn cute she is the little terror, melts my heart daily and the best friend to her big brother.

thanks again!

I'm back at it!

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