Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Cranberry21
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Posts: 56
Location: New England
Country: United States
Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 13 May 2021, 04:13

jilbert57 wrote: 09 May 2021, 09:36 Hi Debra. Have you ever tried overcooked white rice and a small amount of cooked lean beef burger? The simpler you can keep the diet for a pancreatic dog the better.
I used Jasmine rice as it is easy to reheat and easy for the dog to pick up. Then boil burger and make sure to drain on paper towel.
Feed 4 small meals a day for 4 or 5 days and see if things get any better.
You are a wonderful dog mom!

Jill
Thank you Jill! I also use overcooked Jasmine rice. I haven't fed Phoebe boiled burger for many years but chicken and whitefish are failures. I can get 93% lean ground beef, so it's definitely a consideration.

Good suggestion!

Debra

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Cranberry21
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Posts: 56
Location: New England
Country: United States
Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 13 May 2021, 04:28

Olesia711 wrote: 09 May 2021, 21:02 Hi Debra,

Happy Mothers Day to the very best mom Phoebe could have ever had.

I do have a suggestion for you to give Phoebe..... see if you can find some Manganese to give her. I just read a recent research report on giving (don't laugh) chickens probiotics, enzymes and when added Manganese it dramatically improved their stamina, performance/activity level and greatly improved their immune system.

It is safe for dogs, there are no reports of toxicity from too much manganese:
"Manganese is a trace mineral. It is vital for the human body, but people only need it in small amounts. Manganese contributes to many bodily functions, including the metabolism of amino acids, cholesterol, glucose, and carbohydrates. It also plays a role in bone formation, blood clotting, and inflammation"

Might be something to try adding to her diet....
Hi Olesia,
I ordered some Manganese and should have it tomorrow. But I'm stumped about what to do next. Whitefish failed as badly as chicken for proteins (both caused horrible diarrhea). I took the Colon Rescue and digestive enzymes off the menu for now but kept the L-Glut/NAG. The latter really seem to have helped with the bloody diarrhea. And I haven't added probiotics yet. Essentially for 2 days I fed Phoebe rice, until last night when she was tiring of it (had been eating it nonstop). I made a "handler error" and added a little chicken bone broth to the evening portions. The effects weren't terrible but she did have a softer stool than she's been having with just rice.

Obviously she can't live on rice (she is emaciated already and is having trouble standing or walking, she's so weak). I don't know if I have to help her push through with plant-based enzymes (but at a slower rate), or if I should turn to probiotics instead? I'm afraid we're losing her to starvation, but these proteins are making her sick.

I can get 93% lean ground beef, 99% lean ground turkey, ground lamb, pork, bison. I have a butcher around the corner and could check on rabbit, venison or other game. I just don't know what to try next and in what order. I know there is so much trial and error involved and if I can keep from really debilitating side effects I think I can manage her symptoms. The main things I'd like to avoid are the horrible gas pains, and to a lesser extent diarrhea (her poor butt looks like a volcano).

I know there are no guarantees, but do you have suggestions about in what order I should try supplements (like probiotics)? And is the protein choice going to be a dart board and I just have to start with something new and work down a list?

Also, is there any way Phoebe could be enzyme deficient only for proteins, or is that so unlikely as to be silly?

Thank you so much for your help with my little old lady with the cruddy pancreas.

Best to you,
Debra

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Jean
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Location: South Liverpool
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Jean » 13 May 2021, 05:19

my only advice here is a bland diet

Kara was shedding her bowel which was disgusting she was so poorly she took to our bed ! this was fine, we left her there

The Vet said no meat protein, so it was scrambled egg and mashed potato for 14 days, trouble was, she insisted on it every night for life, no problem whatever, we just bought eggs by the 48 at a time , we used reconstituted potato so long as there was no salt or butter in it

I cant say it will work for you, but.............................................we could only give Kara lamb as a meat protein for life, she couldnt tolerate chicken in any way unless I cooled it for her, none in dog food, or poultry fat

she was intollerant of beef chicken white fish and pork this by blood test

I feel for you, we spent a fortune on dog foods, just get small bags, or ask for trial packs

Rabbit is meant to be a good one, pheasant might be too rich

My view is, its your dog, your money, you employ the vet, mine was 100% amazing we called him Uncle Ian, so go in with a determined attitude write down everything you want to know and tick it off as you go

Ask can you record the session, we did it several times, as its a fact we absorb 10% of what we are told ! we listened to the session at home, I am not sure I absorb anything like 10%
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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jilbert57
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State: Washington

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by jilbert57 » 13 May 2021, 09:10

Debra, for another protein I used with Mickey was low fat cottage cheese with the rice. When he got high blood pressure I switched to half low sodium cottage cheese.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Cranberry21
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Posts: 56
Location: New England
Country: United States
Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 14 May 2021, 00:51

Jean wrote: 13 May 2021, 05:19 my only advice here is a bland diet

Kara was shedding her bowel which was disgusting she was so poorly she took to our bed ! this was fine, we left her there

The Vet said no meat protein, so it was scrambled egg and mashed potato for 14 days, trouble was, she insisted on it every night for life, no problem whatever, we just bought eggs by the 48 at a time , we used reconstituted potato so long as there was no salt or butter in it

I cant say it will work for you, but.............................................we could only give Kara lamb as a meat protein for life, she couldnt tolerate chicken in any way unless I cooled it for her, none in dog food, or poultry fat

she was intollerant of beef chicken white fish and pork this by blood test

I feel for you, we spent a fortune on dog foods, just get small bags, or ask for trial packs

Rabbit is meant to be a good one, pheasant might be too rich

My view is, its your dog, your money, you employ the vet, mine was 100% amazing we called him Uncle Ian, so go in with a determined attitude write down everything you want to know and tick it off as you go

Ask can you record the session, we did it several times, as its a fact we absorb 10% of what we are told ! we listened to the session at home, I am not sure I absorb anything like 10%
Jean, I agree re: vets and working with us. Thank you too for the suggestion that we perhaps give a break to "hard" animal proteins and go with something like scrambled eggs. I know Phoebe loves them, perhaps as much as Kara...

She has old-lady teeth so I may have to purée them a bit.

Thank you for the suggestions and insight, and I will consider lamb. I don't have a blood test to go by as you. I'm flying blind with little info, other than empirical observation.

Oh ugh.

I already spent a fortune on gallbladder removal. I just don't want to hurt Phoebe out of stupidity on my part.

Thank you Jean!
Debra

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Cranberry21
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Posts: 56
Location: New England
Country: United States
Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 14 May 2021, 01:02

jilbert57 wrote: 13 May 2021, 09:10 Debra, for another protein I used with Mickey was low fat cottage cheese with the rice. When he got high blood pressure I switched to half low sodium cottage cheese.

Jill
Jill, Thanks for the suggestion. I got some low fat cottage cheese yesterday and Phoebe was super excited(!) by it, eating wise. It's too soon to say if it's working for her, other than she is enjoying it.

What's interesting about your post and Jean's is that you both suggest "non-hard meat" animal proteins (I don't even know if that's a thing...).

So it brings me back to questions: Are proteins generally hard for Phoebe to digest, or only specific proteins? And if protein generally is hard for her to digest, what do I do?

if it's about specific proteins, how do I be methodical about scratching out the ones that aren't offensive?

Thanks so much Jill. Phoebe has been loving the cottage cheese.

Debra

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Cranberry21
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Posts: 56
Location: New England
Country: United States
Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 14 May 2021, 02:02

P.S. Phoebe is loving cottage cheese. She would love raw ground beef but I boiled it and rinsed it and patted it and did all I could to reduce fat from 93% lean beef. So she is not vey happy with me, though still tried to eat my DH’s fingers with beef in them.

But even with puréed 2% fat cottage cheese…she is very happy.

Let’s see what her GI tract says :)

Trimmed her fur down tonight as she is developing serious “hotspot” under tail, despite our efforts to keep it clean there. Moisture the foe. Using Animax and vet pads on rear end. Waiting for antimicrobial spray for tail under base.

Thx for all help & suggestions!
Debra

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jilbert57
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by jilbert57 » 14 May 2021, 09:59

I had to avoid purines at all cost to keep Mickey from forming urate bladder stones.Dense Meats and organ meats were not on his list. His protein was mostly eggs, cottage cheese, low fat ricotta
cheese.
Proteins are hardest to digest. To help the pancreas in pancreatitis usually during active bouts mostly carbs(easier to digest) are given, rice, macaroni etc. Mick loved macaroni.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Madelon
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Posts: 1275
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Madelon » 16 May 2021, 10:22

Hi Debra - this is way out of my area of expertise but based on reading everything I would tend to stick with the eggs and cottage cheese like Jean and Jill suggested. I do know this - Phoebe is VERY lucky to have such a dedicated loving mom!!
MADELON and Doc. DX EPI and SIBO: 5/22/2015
Test Results: (1st) 7/2014 = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate > 24; (2nd) 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24; (3rd) 10/2015 TLI < .4; B12 >1000; Folate 14.4. Prior to DX: May 2014 (2mos) - DX coccidia/bladder infection; July 2014 (3mos) 1st EPI test = TLI 16.5, B12 894, Folate >24 - Dx SIBO not EPI; Feb 2015 thru May 2015 - weight loss only; May 2015 vomitted several times, diarrhea and eating poop. Regimen: 4 cups Sport Dog Food Elite Herding - Diane 6x 1tsp per cup; 1 WonderLab PetFactor B12 2x day; 1/2tsp Slippery Elm 2xday; Multivitamin; 1 Zyrtec 10mg 2x day; Salmon Oil

Barb
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Posts: 643
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Barb » 17 May 2021, 18:33

I have finally caught up with your thread. Phoebe is so lucky to have you. It is so hard when our pups have more than one condition to deal with, sometimes at cross purposes with each other. You have dealt with all of them so well. It is so inspiring to watch love in action.

Barb

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