Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
Barb
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Barb » 15 Mar 2021, 14:03

A warm welcome to you and Phoebe!

Debra, Phoebe is the luckiest dog ever to have you caring for her. And you are in good hands with Olesia and Jill. I also do not have experience with pancreatitis, but these ladies do and will give you the best advice. I hope you can make her comfortable enough that you can have a few more of those adventures.

Barb

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jilbert57
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by jilbert57 » 15 Mar 2021, 15:17

Hi Debra, not sure I was just curious of the dose.
This is a good article and mentions blood in stools:

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/healt ... s-in-dogs/

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Mar 2021, 20:18

Hi Debra,

Regarding the Hydrolyzed food..... as everyone else suggested, we typically suggest Ultamino, HOWEVER..... since Phoebe is such an elderly dog, i am assuming it might be very difficult for her to eat kibble.... so you might want to try ProPlan HA food.... this is a canned hydrolyzed food.
Ask your vet if you can try this for a few feeding and maybe just buy 1 or 2 cans:
Image

Here is a good description of Hydrolyzed food for dogs "dogs take proteins from food, break them down into building blocks called amino acids, and combine those amino acids into new proteins.

In some animals, dietary proteins can trigger an abnormal immune response. Hydrolysis uses water to chemically break proteins into pieces that are so small that the immune system no longer reacts to them. Veterinarians typically prescribe hydrolyzed protein dog foods to treat two diseases: food allergy and inflammatory bowel disease"


It sounds like she may have a sensitivity to some foods... and if the tiny bit of enzymes appeared to have hurt her tummy, maybe she has a sensitivity to pork, in which case don't give her anymore. Normally enzymes are not a problem to give any dog (or human) unless they have a pork sensitivity and then it can give them loose stools... which i suspect that in its self hurt Phoebe, poor thing.
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Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Olesia711
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Mar 2021, 20:35

regarding the IMHA.... if the HGT (Hematocrit is low on the blood tests (like in the 20's or less) then that is the first indication that your dog has IMHA.... and the white blood cell count will also be off.

Regarding Cushings, i don't think that they can diagnose it via a regular CBC blood panel.... i think (but am not 100% sure) that a CBC just measures the cortisol levels for that moment in time, it does not necessarily give an accurate big picture... usually an ACTH needs to be done. Best to talk to your vet about this, it is a multiple hour test. but a lot of elderly dogs develop Cushings. :( ... so it might be worth chatting to your vet about it.

i wish there were some absolute solutions we could give you to make Phoebe feel better.... she sounds like such a sweetie.... hopefully something helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Cranberry21
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Pet name: Phoebe
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 16 Mar 2021, 02:14

Thank you Barb for the warm welcome!

Best to you,
Debra

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Cranberry21
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 16 Mar 2021, 02:19

Hi Jill,
I really appreciate you sending me that article. Fortunately today was better than yesterday, with slightly better poops. Phoebe is still a real gas machine. I spoke with her vet today (who emailed over the weekend to check in...he's trying...) and he didn't seem that concerned about the poop woes. I've even sent him the grossest of photos. I think I'm going to schedule an abdominal ultrasound. It's been a couple of years and is probably a good idea.

Have a great Tuesday,
Debra

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Cranberry21
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Location: New England
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 16 Mar 2021, 02:32

Olesia,

Thank you for the info on hydrolyzed food, and the recommendation re: ProPlan. I spoke with her vet today and he thinks she should try Royal Canin Low Fat GI or the similar one from Hill's. Yes, I'm sure he'll let me try a can or two...he's really good about things like that. For the longest time he's been trying to get me to agree to hydrolyzed food, but now he's gotten on my low fat bandwagon and I wasn't able to get him off (yet). Phoebe is soooo sensitive to most added things and I've been trying to keep her pancreas happy since her gallbladder came out. I haven't even had the nerve to try MCTs (coconut oil, of course).

I didn't know that enzymes wouldn't hurt most dogs. I gave her such a few dustings...I still can't believe it bothered her. Very good to know that it may be a sensitivity to pork.

Is there a way to test her for that you think might be most useful/easiest?

I read here on the site that plant-based enzymes aren't strong enough for EPI dogs. Does it make any sense to see if they might help her, as she is not EPI (yet at least)?

Debra

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Cranberry21
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Location: New England
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Pet name: Phoebe
My name: Debra

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Cranberry21 » 16 Mar 2021, 02:51

Hi again Olesia,
Oh, Phoebe's hematocrit is not that low (it's barely low), and white blood cell count was normal. Hemoglobin was a little low as well.

I'll definitely chat with the vet about Cushing's. He's trying to tell me that he's not entirely convinced that Phoebe has hypothyroidism, though the test was clear. And the med has worked to bring her T4 up substantially and her hair grew back. Still, it's def possible that she could have both.

All of this is really helpful. It's got me thinking differently and I'm learning things I def did not know.

Phoebe is a sweetie, in this land of dog sweeties.

Debra

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jilbert57
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Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by jilbert57 » 16 Mar 2021, 09:44

Hi Phoebe, I used Totalzymes, a plant based enzyme with Mickey and they did help some. I emailed with the owner and he was very helpful. I tasted it and it was slightly sweet. Also folks have had good luck with Prozyme also.
Mickey kept his gallbladder but it was full of sludge every ultrasound. He was on Ursodiol plus Allopurinol for urate stones.

https://nwcnaturals.com/total-digestion-six-pack.html

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 3858
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Phoebe, Chronic Pancreatitis and Voracious/Starving

Post by Olesia711 » 16 Mar 2021, 10:50

Hi Debra,

Definitely try a canned hydrolyzed food.... and i would ask the vet to sell you 2 cans,

1. the first one i would try would be Hills Z/D since this is a true hydrolyzed food.... (2.3% fat content which is very low)
2. the second can i would try would be the Royal Canine Low Fat GI ... although this is NOT a true hydrolyzed food, just very low in fat (1.43% which is extremely low)

and see which one works, if at all.... if Phoebe does have a pork sensitivity, the first one will be the only one that will work because the pork protein is hydrolyzed (in other words her body will not recognize the offending protein)
the second one also has pork in it.... but is not hydrolyzed.

Just try first one then the other 72 hours later...... reason why i am suggesting 72 hours later is because they used to think dogs eliminated within 12 hours..... well, we begged to differ with them based on the old feed some chopped up carrots with one meal and check to see when eliminated trick..... and then FINALLY Davis Veterinary School did a study a few years ago and they found exactly what we were saying all along that dogs elimination process can be anywhere between 12 to 72 hours after a meal.... so..... this is why i am recommending waiting 72 hours before you try the 2nd "different" can of of food..

Personally i would not try the coconut oil..... hold off on that.
Regarding whether or not she has a pork allergy, i doubt it, but you just never know, so best to err on the side of caution, not give any more enzymes at this time and see if the hydrolyzed food helps her over all... just in case.

Yes, you can do a series of allergy/sensitivity tests with her.... the allergy tests do not have a get accuracy track record.....unless the results are way off the charts then you know for sure that there really is a problem.... BUT.... what you might want to try is Dr. Dodds sensitivity test:
https://hemopet.org/nutriscan/ i personally put a lot more credibility into her sensitivity test than how the rating is in a lot of the food allergy tests. Especially since food allergies are really not that common but sensitivities are.

And last, your vet is kind of right about the low thyroid.... i know this is going to sound crazy but, (1) there is low thyroid... real low thyroid, (2) and then there is low thyroid that is not really low thyroid but registering as low thyroid because something else in the body is messed up so what you are seeing is that there is a problem elsewhere in the body and that is why the low thyroid results is low. BUt my opinion on this (but please discuss with your vet) is that in either case that the low thyroid meds help, so if you saw improvement, then i'd ask the vet if he is okay with keeping Phoebe on the low thyroid meds... and maybe ask what if any harm there might be doing this. My opinion on this is only based on what was explained to me and what we went thru. My EPI dog had EPI for 8 years and then came down with Idiopathic IMHA, Diabetes and her Thyroid tested as low.... so the Levothyroxine for Low Thyroid helped tremendously and we kept her on the low thyroid meds for another 8 years until she passed, even after she was in IMHA remission, but her Diabetes and EPI condition obviously was with her until she passed..........
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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