Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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zeeeeeeebra
Member
Posts: 3
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Angie
My name: Darren

Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by zeeeeeeebra » 25 Mar 2021, 18:05

Hello, i picked up little Angie when she was just coming to 13 weeks old. Sorry but lots of poo talk incoing!

When i picked her up, she had very little interest in food and was a struggle to get her to eat. How ever that weekend she suffered from diaharra and extreme lose stools. Vet said possible stress of move etc can set a bad belly off as well as lose of appetite. She went on rice and chicken and the stools got firmer but still soft and still quite yellow. How ever she was a very slow eater.

Queue the next few weeks, maybe gastro issue, put her on pro-kolin. Which helped and didn't help. Her first poo of the day was firm and good colour, followed by other poos either being very soft and light or going from brown to soft yellow at the end. Some were really bad smelling and complete mush when picking up.

Ok next we tried panacure for gardia and carried on with the pro-kolin, no real change. All the time shes not really eating much.. I was worried she put on minimal weight 3.8kg to 4.4kg and the vet just said maybe shes just fussy.

So i tried to introduce new food unfourtunatly the second night of hew new food she threw up and next day she threw up alot. Went to the vets who have suggested more pro-kolin and also given an anti-biotic and anti-inflamatory. Few of her poos were dark and hard, a few were very grey and greesy, and some were soft and yellow) i took 3 day samples to the vet who looked through them before prescribing the medicine) As well as a longer bland diet to just clam everything down. Carry on with pro-kolin.

Now this week.

- She is now scoffing down food, always seems hungry and have to try and stop her hoovering up stuff on our walks.
- She;s not rushing to poo after food. she wakes up at 7:30am, poos in the garden, we usually go for a walk around 8:30am and she poos again. Feeding her about 30 minutes after get back. Usually wakes up and eats around 1pm, naps again before a walk at 4pm and then food around 6:30. She only poos on walks and isnt rushing out for a poo straight after eating or shortly after.
- Her poos, again are very good in the morning, Then on her first walk (about an hour later after waking) it's a mix a almost mix of light brown/yellow and looking greasy/covered in oil. It looks like it wil be soft but usually ok to pick up. Then she sometimes does a 3rd which is more the same, but more broken up. There is how ever no real noticable foul smell.
- She's still 4.4kg, doesnt seem to be growing or gaining weight which i'd expect from a puppy.
- She's not having accidents in the house or rushing outside to do a poo.

Am i worrying over nothing or should i get my vet to do a test for EPI? Again after having her a month and minimal weight gain and very rarely normal pooing, i'm worried it is EPI.

Tuckaboo Pam
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Posts: 591
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 Mar 2021, 19:09

Hi Darren and welcome to the forum. Sounds like you will definitely benefit from the knowledge the staff has accrued over the years, and one or more of them will be responding soon. I would suggest, if you can, to provide information like, what antibiotics were prescribed. Ask as many questions as you like, seriously, and as far as poop talk goes----that's what we're all about, and you can even post pictures! ----Pam & Tucker in FL
Tucker is a shepherd/lab mix; he has tested positive on the ScheBo test for EPI, as well as the fasting TLI. Results--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Currently taking Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlab B12 capsules 2-3 per week, slippery elm 1/2 teaspoon/day, Proviable 1 capsule/day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/day. Sport Dog Elite, herding dogs 4 cups/day. No more poop eating, his weight is steady, and he is a happy member of the family, though a bit of a stinker, if you ask the other dogs. Tucker is my boyfriend, and my husband is OK with that.

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Olesia711
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Posts: 1884
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by Olesia711 » 25 Mar 2021, 20:44

Hi Darren and thanks for the great descriptions of what has been going on... that was very helpful. And YES! i would definitely test for EPI... at least with a simple blood test, you will know one way or another if this is EPI....and you can treat accordingly or THEN move on to running different tests to see what it can be.

Just from what you are describing, it sound like it could be EPI.

But my one big note of caution is that what you don't want to do is assume it is EPI and just treat it as if it was confirmed EPI and then unintended consequence happen....

The fact that she was treated for giardia, and you did not see any real results, the description of the poo is actually spot-on for EPI poo..... but just know that it can also be a poo description for other possible gastro conditions. (except for the greasy attribution... that is usually an EPI trait).

The fussy eating part in the beginning "could" be from the B12 dropping which happens with EPI... but can also happen with other gastrointestinal conditions..
But then the voracious appetite & little or no weight gain, ... if EPI ... this is when the body is starting to crave nutrition cause it is no longer absorbing it from the food....

SO........ i would highly recommend testing for EPI.... and while the vet is drawing the blood for the TLI test (for EPI) have them also draw enough blood and run a Cobalamin test (tests the B12 levels) since over 80% of EPI dogs have problems with the B12 levels too.... so you will want to check that also... as also other gastro conditions can have low B12 too..

***Our recommendation is to food fast (water is okay to have) approx 12 hours prior to the blood being drawn for the TLI & B12 blood tests....AND.....be sure to schedule the blood draw ONLY on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday... usually a morning appt is best so that you can feed them breakfast as soon as the blood has been taken..
***FYI The blood is time sensitive and what you don't want is for the blood to sit in some lab over the weekend waiting to be tested the following workday week cause the results will then be skewed.


The other good thing about running both the TLI test and the CObalamin test... is that if this is not EPI, but possible a food sensitivity/something like IBD.... then the Folate score from the B12 test will indicate this too....

In the meantime, if you want....you can actually give her a little pancreatic enzymes to see if it helps her. Giving the enzymes to a dog that doesn't have EPI will not hurt as long as you only do this temporarily.

However, please ask your vet to NOT prescribe Metronidazole to your pup..... Metronidazole kills ALL bacteria in the gut, good and bad (which we all knew for years)... but.... what they just discovered is that some of the bacterial strains the Metro kills can never ever be reintroduced to that dog's gut flora, not matter how ma y pre or probiotics you give it..... if this turns out to be a chronic gastrointestinal condition- -even if not EPI, remember... do not give Metro. if Metro is needed for a temporary/not chronic condition then that is okay..

Hope this helps!
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Jean
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Posts: 1199
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by Jean » 26 Mar 2021, 09:20

Good afternoon from me I liverpool, where are you ?

The vets will be able to send the blood draw to one of the Labs over here but as Olesia says dont go on a Friday for the test and no food for 12 hours, ask the vets for cobalamin, b12 to be tested too, water should not be restricted

If you did want to try some enzymes, Chemeyes could help with a sample bag

Let us know what you decide
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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Patsy
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Posts: 165
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by Patsy » 26 Mar 2021, 14:18

Hello and welcome from Yorkshire.
I guess your pup is now four to five months, I can understand the protocols the vet is taking, but sometimes the medicines have side effects that confuse the picture.
Prokolin helps with good bacteria , and contains kaolin, alias china clay. This is used to firm up diarrhoea, so some poos will improve, and go back to loose when the effect has travelled through the gut. It isn’t a cure and changes the natural colour of the poo to pale. Also, which antibiotics and antinflammatories have she had.? These can upset things and confuse the picture, and cause diarrhoea.
What exactly are you feeding her with and how much. Epi or not, this is very important. I don’t accept A vet stating a dog is stressed or fussy. She is not getting the nourishment she needs at this rapid growth time.
I agree that epi is possible, but I would want to clarify my questions first before a test. Jean’s instructions for the test are spot on, and the result is a clear yes or no.
I haven’t seen a corgi in the Uk for years. The ones I have heard of are all North American members here, which may be significant. Oh, and Meghan’s mother-in -law.
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

zeeeeeeebra
Member
Posts: 3
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Angie
My name: Darren

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by zeeeeeeebra » 07 Apr 2021, 07:26

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in response. I thought maybe her meds fixed things, and also personal issues delayed my response.

I'm in London!

She was on Metrobactin for 7 days, she also took this in combination with Symbiotic D&C probiotics. Which seemed to firm things up and poos eventually started going to normal colour, how ever she was also only on fish and rice. She pooed less, once or twice a day. When she came off the medication, i started transitioning her back to food Ella&Co Cold Pressed Ocean Fish, which she has about 120-130g of a day, due to her being a bit on the lean side. She also has been having yak milk chews,

She was fine for a week. How ever this week her poos, although shapely, and ok to pick up can be quite soft/leave residue behind. They also starting to smell and she's now started to eat her feaces (only when on my terrace but not on walks) to the point where she's turning around to get it as she's pooing. Her poos are also quite volumness for what i believe she eats, I am suspecting maybe the yak milk chews she has maybe a cause (as i started her back on these , so i have taken them away to see if this settles her. She usually poos once or twice, within minutes of eachother (larger) in the morning after waking and another shortly after when shes on her walk. She then usually doesn't poo again till her walk later, then onc e before bed. Maybe another one during the day. So 5/6 times a day. I feel this week she's not as energetic as usual. Only on walks, and even then she's not to enthuastic about it.

She's still only 4.4kg as of this morning. Not losing or gaining. So i'm obviously still very concerned by that.

i have tried adding links to my post with commentary on her poos, but keeps getting marked as spam.

I have a phone call with the vet so talk about EPI with them to see what they think.

Sorry for all the pics! i tried to only do links but got hit by spam rules.
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jilbert57
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Posts: 1188
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by jilbert57 » 07 Apr 2021, 09:03

Hi. Please don't apologize for sending pictures! They are best.
We have issues with spam links to things not pertaining to Epi so glad you posted pictures.
You have been given good advice in previous posts so I will also say the best way to treat is by having YTli and cobalamin tested to confirm or rule out Epi.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

zeeeeeeebra
Member
Posts: 3
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Angie
My name: Darren

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by zeeeeeeebra » 07 Apr 2021, 10:28

Olesia711 wrote:
25 Mar 2021, 20:44
However, please ask your vet to NOT prescribe Metronidazole to your pup..... Metronidazole kills ALL bacteria in the gut, good and bad (which we all knew for years)... but.... what they just discovered is that some of the bacterial strains the Metro kills can never ever be reintroduced to that dog's gut flora, not matter how ma y pre or probiotics you give it..... if this turns out to be a chronic gastrointestinal condition- -even if not EPI, remember... do not give Metro. if Metro is needed for a temporary/not chronic condition then that is okay..

Hope this helps!
Wish i knew this before... Although she was on it for only 7 days. Will she be OK?

I spoke to the vet today, annoyingly they want fecal sample over 3 days to test for parasites, he was less clear on what other items the fecal screening tests for.... I pushed for the blood test but they said fecal screening first. I also kept getting "change her food" and "feed her a bit more" which i have been doing... she's been 4.4kg a month, surely you know thats not right! He seemed he didn't want to hear about possible malabsoption issues.. :roll:

I'm going to stick put her back on probiotics whilst we go through this.

May change vets!

zehee17
Member
Posts: 1
Country: Canada

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by zehee17 » 22 Apr 2021, 04:10

Hello,

I am from Vancouver and my Corgi had the same symptoms when he reached 4 months. It took us almost 3 months to diagnose him! He was going through exactly the same thing. At first, he lost his appetite, then he started pooping more than normal. The vet told us to feed him chicken and rice so we did, and the symptoms just got worse. His poop starting smelling very acidic and turning yellow. He lost a lot of weight. After months of testing, I was lucky enough to find this forum. After reading other people's stories, I got Chester tested for EPI right away, and the results came out positive. I would recommend getting him tested. We have him on 1/2ts of Pankaid per meal, and he has been doing great so far. I hope you find his diagnosis soon!

Barb
Staff
Posts: 624
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Potential EPI Corgi pup?

Post by Barb » 22 Apr 2021, 16:57

My vet did not want to do the Tli test for Kolby at first either, but then I found this Forum (many years ago when we were all younger!) and discovered that Kolby had 5 of the symptoms listed, so we went back and insisted on the test. By this time, our vet was on board and started reading everything I brought him. Later, we found out that he was testing for EPI sooner rather than later, so our beloved boy was an ambassador of sorts.

So I would keep pushing for the test. At least you will know for sure one way or another and you can begin to help your pup.

I'm sorry I could not open the pictures.

Barb

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