Panzym - stopped working

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Patsy
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Patsy » 07 Apr 2021, 16:49

I agree with Jill about B12 causing strange behaviour. Marti was really depressed, confused, eventually thinking night was day, keeping me up. I told a disbelieving vet that I wanted a blood test for it, he refused the test and reluctantly said he’d give her a B12 shot. The next day she was a new dog! Then I dumped that vet. My new choice was great, and kept her on injections till he retired, when I bought the capsules from Chemeyes.co.uk. They sell all things epi, being epi owners, pharmacists and forum members. They will gladly chat. Do look at their website.
Find out what the B12 blood test result was. Did they actually test it, it’s a separate blood draw and used to cost about £60. 300 is supposedly normal, our dogs need 600+
I need B12 myself. I know when it’s rock bottom, I lost the car, couldn’t remember names or add up money! Talked drivel, A gp offered to refer me to the Memory clinic! my deficiency is due to taking metformin, but commonly it’s due to pernicious anaemia. Again, with people it is a separate blood test.
If B12 doesn’t help the quirky behaviour, then get the neurological check up. What about sight or hearing?
Both the dogs are gorgeous. Do you groom them yourself?
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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GGx
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 08 Apr 2021, 01:59

Hi!!

Thank you all so much for helping me, it really means a lot.

Jill... no, she's not rubbing her head against the beds, as if she's itchy, or even pressing her ear against it. It's a gentle thing, like she's listening. It may be that she can hear earthworms moving around inside. The previous owners had a chicken run there and she would stare through the entrance for hours but she would never go inside. When we tried to bring her into the house, she would stare at the chicken run from the patio doors and howl like a wolf to be let out again. If we let her out, she'd run back and continue staring into thin air. Occasionally panting and wagging her tail. So, no scratching, no signs of any pain or head trauma, just really odd behaviour.

Both sight and hearing seem bang on. Her most apparent deficiency is energy. She seems tired all the time. Last night, I practically had to shake her to get her to go upstairs to bed, it's like she's out cold. When she's like that, I really worry about her. I keep thinking that one day she isn't going to wake up and that terrifies me. I don't have children and I know it's not right to treat your dogs like babies, but I'm afraid I can't help it.

Patsy, it's really interesting that you say that about a B12 deficiency causing odd behaviour in your dog ... and yourself! It has never occurred to me that B12 might cause such distinct behavioural issues.

I'll get on to the vets today and take control of what they're doing with her. I've been relying on them to tell me what to do, but now I realise it needs to be the other way around. I'll start with the antibiotics and get a PDF from the previous vet today with the B12 results. Yes, they definitely tested it separately. The vet at least knew that much, that dogs with EPI tend to have B12 deficiencies but I don't think she knew it needed to be over 300.

Yes, we groom them, but occasionally send them to a groomer for a reset because we aren't as neat with the clippers. We keep them in puppy cuts because they spend so much time in woods and fields, so the breed standard cut is completely impractical... what dog really needs a long skirt!? What's so gorgeous about the Americocker is how soft they are, Barney especially. The brown coat is like snuggle fur!

Thanks again... I'll drop an update later with the results from the vet.

Gilly x

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Jean
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Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Jean » 08 Apr 2021, 08:36

Hi Gilly

low b12 causes all sorts of things like dizzyness etc

https://www.animalbiome.com/blog/b12-de ... of-the-gut

low b12 is evident in EPI dogs

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

My husbandd has had some dizzy spells and is being sent for blood tests, one being b12 and Folate, the dogs with EPI need their b12 to be in the region of 600 plus, the regime for us was 1 injection per week for 12 weeks, and then 1 monthly for life, we also supplemented with

https://www.chemeyes.co.uk/product/vita ... ic-factor/

1 daily

we knew when Kara's plumetted she behave like a lunatic, very disturbed etc. so we never let it happen, if you look at the links I have sent it talks about lethargy being an implication of low b12

please feel free to print anything off this website for your vet to read, and share
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

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GGx
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 08 Apr 2021, 09:17

Thanks Jean, those links are super helpful.

I contacted the vet and she said Betty's B12 result was 414, so it wasn't scarily low, but not 600 either. And that may have changed since. She is very lethargic at the moment.

I'm contacting my new vet now to have another checkup of the B12 and organise meds for the SIBO. I will print this off as you suggest.

Fingers crossed we'll start making some progress. I'll keep you all updated and so appreciate the help.

Thanks!
Gilly x

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GGx
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Pet name: Betty
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 08 Apr 2021, 09:26

GGx wrote:
07 Apr 2021, 07:43

Betty has 3/4 cup of kibble with 1/4 cup of wet food per meal (twice per day) and 1tsp Panzym on each meal. Her treats are also sprinkled with Panzym. I will measure this in grams and do some more precise calculations on the powder.

This should read 1/2 cup of kibble with 1/4 cup of wet food - it's 3/4 cup in total.

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jilbert57
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by jilbert57 » 08 Apr 2021, 10:00

Good morning Gilly,
thanks for clarifying the head. I was wondering if she was head pressing, but it sounds like she is listening.

We "know" that our Mickey JRT who passed in 2014 visits periodically as both dogs(before Kiya just passed) will stop and watch as he roams the house. Their tails wag happily. Then they both at the same time finish what they were doing before he appeared to them. I would suspect if Betty has no neurological issue she is seeing the chicken run as it was with chickens in it. :P

Since your total food as you are telling me is 3/4 cup you could try 3/4teaspoon Panzyme, especially since 1/4 cup is wet food and you use a little less enzyme per cup of wet food.

I would see how Betty is when you supplement with B12. Let us know how the vet visit goes.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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GGx
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 08 Apr 2021, 12:51

Hi Jill,

Crazy as it sounds, I think someone was hung there or hung themselves there a long time ago. I took a video of Betty staring through the chicken run entrance on my phone, I thought it was funny at the time (we didn't know she had EPI then) and was going to post it on Facebook. Then one of my friends asked to see it so I played it on my big iMac screen. It was only on the big screen that we saw, on the wall to her left, a shadow of a swinging rope. But it's a north-facing wall and physically impossible for a shadow to be created there, even if there was a swinging rope in the garden to throw it - which there wasn't. She definitely sees things we can't. It freaked me out, I'll tell you. But whatever it was didn't frighten her, so it doesn't frighten me. She was desperate to get out there and would have stayed all day if we'd let her.

So I completely believe you about your dogs.

You can watch it if you want to (needs a big screen) if you search for Carrie Magillen on YouTube you'll find it (that's a pen name).

Do you need to let Panzym sit on the food? The vet said no and it's not on the instructions to do so.

Betty's booked in tomorrow morning. Will see what they come back with. Feels good to take control of her care and just accept that the vets don't really know what they're doing.

Thanks x

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Patsy
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Patsy » 08 Apr 2021, 13:37

Not crazy. My cocker and I could communicate by telepathy from far away. Weird but true . He was weird anyway.
Never soak panzym or any uk/EU enzymes on the food. It starts digesting immediately and turns food to smelly sick. I’m impressed she eats it. You can help future mouth problems by cleaning her mouth with a drink after food or wiping her cheeks, or squirting water in with a syringe or turkey baster. Spaniel cheeks don’t rinse out easily on their own.
If you’re writing a book we’ve plenty more material!
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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GGx
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Posts: 12
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 09 Apr 2021, 08:09

Hi everyone!

So, my vet was away on holiday and ended up with another one at the practice. Not only is she WONDERFUL she even said she was going to call up a referral centre for EPI to get more information.

She thinks - because the previous vet didn't have a clue - we should start from scratch. She's going to re-test Betty's TLI on Monday and her folate and B12 levels too. But she's given her a B12 shot to try to boost her energy. She's treating her for SIBO (can't give Tylan in UK as you've said, and Oxytetracycline would mean stool samples and cultures before she can prescribe it. Given that she's clearly very ill, she wanted to start treatment right away. I voiced my concerns with Metronidazole but she said not to worry about individual cases that had rare side effects, for the overwhelming majority of dogs, this worked really well, so she's on metrobactin but if she has any negative side effects - diarrhoea worsening - to stop it straight away). She's also given her probiotics.

She said that Panzym recommend 1tsp per 10 Kilos per meal, in which case Betty should be on 1 1/4 tsp per meal. But she suggested we hold fire on altering the Panzym quantity until we had more information from the tests.

Be interested in your thoughts on all this!


Patsy, I'm on my third book now. I always have a dog as a character in my books, so I'm always interested to hear funny or charming stories. You never know, maybe one of your dogs will end up in one! Barney is a big character in my first book and Betty comes in at the end (as we got her while I was writing it). My best friend's Cavalier King Charles, Cairo, died last year, quite tragically and suddenly, and I've bought her back to life on the page, using all her personality traits. You don't get enough books where dogs are real characters! So share away! x

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Olesia711
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State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Olesia711 » 09 Apr 2021, 11:00

Hi So sorry that Betty had this experience..... ANY TIME a dog poops poop that looks like red raspberries..... PLEASE take the dog to the vet ASAP.... THis often is either, like what Jean and Patsy suggested, lining shedding ......OR..... it can be HGE .... a very bad bacterial infection that needs different antibiotics... Tylan will not address it properly. Usually they will recommend Amoxicillan/Clavomox.. If it gets better on it's own, then great, but some times, it doesn't and it can be life threatening.

Here is a good read on it, if this is what might be going on:
https://www.elwoodvet.net/haemorrhagic-gastroenteritis

BTW.... SOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo glad you changed vetse, your 2nd vet gave you correct information. Can't believe what the first vet suggested *sigh*.....
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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