Panzym - stopped working

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
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Patsy
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Patsy » 09 Apr 2021, 13:50

https://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-supplements ... wder-p-501
Your vet is wrong. I’m glad you’re not changing your panzym dose. Marti weighed 24 kegs. I tsp per meal three times a day. Betty is 11kgs so should be a tiny bit more than the half tsp. recommended dose for a 10 kg dog. One and half would cause problems.
Too much can cause ulceration........maybe this is her problem. Olesia’s thoughts on haemorrhaging enteritis are spot on too. So you see we are all guessing, and hoping the vet can work it out with our background input.
Oxytetracycline worked for SID, But as Olesia said, for h. enteritis there a different ones.
Diet for now, I would give her an invalid diet for a few days. Scrambled egg/white fish. With mashed sweet or plain potato. Slippery elm or a mucilage from the vet can help a raw gut by coating it.

We’ve all had difficulties with vets who are trying to help epi without actual experience. As Jean, refer them to this website, emphasing it’s accreditation’s, I ve only met one vet, a PDSA. emergency vet, who knew about it.
If you don’t mind, can you tell us who your referral is to?
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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Patsy
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Patsy » 10 Apr 2021, 13:24

Another thought, I was puzzled by Betty being tubby, then realised Marti was the same. Wasted muscles , but solid , lethargic and had epi poo. Hungry and thirsty.
This was a long time ago, when epi knowledge was even worse. I am mentioning this because you should be aware of the concurrent conditions that get involved. When you get your referral, it helps to have read up everything on the menu page so that you understand what the vet is talking about, and bring up your own questions . I trust they will be thorough, and explain clearly.
My vet identified protein losing enteropathy (PLN). Fluid containing albumin leaking into the abdomen and pleural cavities, pressing on the lungs, heart and other organs. So she looked tubby. Fatal untreated, so he treated that first, as she wasn’t quite going to starve. No internal investigations because her heart couldn’t cope with anaesthesia. Steroids worked and we saw how thin she was. Then we started enzymes and other issues. He was a patient, caring local vet. Hard to find.
Epi can be a slow healing process, with unexpected allergies and new autoimmune problems appearing. That’s why this forum grew so huge, with the research and experience of so many, guided by Olesia. Jean , Jill and I were early members , who won’t go away!
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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GGx
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 11 Apr 2021, 03:19

Hi Olesia,

Thanks... I know next time that what I need to do is take a sample of the poop which I didn't think to do, then the vet could have taken cultures and recommended the right antibiotic. As it happened, Betty's poop returned immediately to normal, she pooped about 30 minutes after that one and it was fine, and she seemed okay, so I had no idea what to do for the best. It's so hard when you can't ask them how they feel or if they're in any pain and dogs are so resilient - at least my two are - they trot around as if nothing's wrong.

Barney's cruciate ligaments blew in 2019 and the only reason I knew anything was wrong with him was because of the way he stood on the path and looked at me, reluctant to follow. He must have been in terrible pain, but it was almost impossible to tell. Just knew something wasn't quite right and got him to the vet.

Anyway... thanks for the advice. I'll know what to do if it happens again - fingers crossed, with the new vet, who seems wonderful, we'll have better care for Betty going forward x

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GGx
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Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 11 Apr 2021, 03:37

Morning lovely ladies,

My referral was to Southern Counties, but all they did was retest her TLI and tell me more about Panzym (the need to put it on every piece of food and that the first vet was wrong - that her TLI wouldn't change.). But now I've met this new vet at my local practice which is Pet Doctors (I moved from Mildmay Winchester - the vet who suggested I just leave Betty and forget it, to John Knott in Winchester who was even worse - OMG I've never seen a vet treat animals so badly, he's cruel – finally to Pet Doctors) she actually seems more proactive than Southern Counties. She may not know much about EPI at this time but SC didn't do much either, and she at least she WANTS to learn. I have far more respect for a vet/doctor who admits they don't know and will research than one who pretends to know and gives bad advice as if it's gospel.

I have to starve Betty on Monday morning when Pet Doctors plans to start from scratch and re-do all the tests. What I'm going to do is take printouts of all the websites and advice you have given me and take it down to her. If she wants to refer Betty again, I'm going to move from SC to Anderson Moores. They're another big operation, seem very professional, and I may have better luck with them.

That's interesting what you say about your dog being tubby too, Patsy, that's exactly what Betty is like - tubby but fragile. Not like Barney who is rock solid with muscle. Betty is back up to 14Kg. That's overweight for her. She should be 11Kg.

I'm going to stick with 1tsp of Panzym per meal until I have a better understanding of what's going on with her.

Thanks everyone! It's wonderful that you're here, giving up your free time to owners like me who are struggling through the early experiences with EPI.

Gilly x

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Patsy
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Patsy » 11 Apr 2021, 07:09

What anti allergy injections is she having?
there are folks on here who who have used a Apoquel? Another is called cytopoint. Has any vet checked on the side effects of these ? I’m not a vet so I can’t comment on this!
Springer spaniel Marti had Epi, PLE , MMM just to confuse me. She lived till 12yrs, chubby and happy despite eight years of epi.
Capsule enzymes suited her best. B12 supplements made her into a new dog!
After a cocker with PLN kidney disease, I now have two healthy rescues, a lively, suicidal , small ginger terrier, adopted with pneumonia, and gum disease needing nearly all his teeth out, and a fluffy grey toy poodle/terrier from Greece.

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GGx
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Posts: 12
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 21 Apr 2021, 04:31

Hello lovely ladies,

I wanted to give you a quick update on Betty and thank you all for your help.

The lovely new vet is taking over Betty's care permanently so I'm now on vet No.4.

All of Betty's tests came back negative, there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with her. Her TLI had actually increased from 2 to 4. Her tummy has settled and she seems to be getting a little bit of energy back although she's still tired, bless her. Her B12 and folate were excellent but we're putting her on supplements too and going to check her levels again in a month.

The anti-allergy immunotherapy doesn't appear to be doing much, so she going to switch Betty to Apoquel next month if she still has no relief from the itching after the last jab. Then monitor progress with that.

But, thanks to you all on here, we seem to be on a much more structured track for taking care of her.

I really appreciate all the help.

Love
Gilly x

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jilbert57
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by jilbert57 » 21 Apr 2021, 09:27

Thank you for the update Gilly. Was she food fasted for at least 8 hrs. before the Tli?
My TJ is on Apoquel for about 4 months of the year. He is a 19lb Jack Russell. There is a loading dose for 1 week then you drop down to a maintenance dose. In his case his feet are chewed and bright red, 2 days after the first dose his skin is calm. Good luck.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

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GGx
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Pet name: Betty
My name: Gilly

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by GGx » 22 Apr 2021, 05:13

Hi Jill,

Yes, she was fasted. We were both surprised it had risen.

That's good to know that the Apoquel is so effective. I think if Betty's jab wasn't due that day she may have switched right away, but it's only a few weeks before the next one.

But heavens, was this a sight for sore eyes last night ... she actually PLAYED in the garden ... it's been a few weeks before she's had the energy for that! Looks like we're getting there. What a relief. Thanks everyone! xxx

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jilbert57
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Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by jilbert57 » 22 Apr 2021, 09:10

Betty you are so cute! Love the bee.
I am glad she is getting some energy back.
Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have one pup. TJ is a 5 year old Jack Russell.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Barb
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Posts: 627
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: Panzym - stopped working

Post by Barb » 22 Apr 2021, 16:38

Good to see her playing and feeling better. Let us know how she does.

Barb

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