EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
tlwright21
Member
Posts: 36
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: tony

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by tlwright21 » 24 May 2021, 11:41

I do have another question. I took him today for his B12 shot and he gained about 1/2 # in the last week. I'm feeding him 6 cups per day from his normal 4 cups/d.
Should I expect that 6 cups will be his new norm? Or do they eventually gain their weight completely back to before?

Also if low fat is not necessary then could he not eat what he was eating before, Purina One, 26% protein, 16% fat, 3% fiber.

INGREDIENTS: Chicken, rice flour, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, chicken by-product meal, whole
grain wheat, soybean meal, beef fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, natural flavor, glycerin, dried
chicory root, calcium carbonate, mono and dicalcium phosphate, salt, caramel color, dried carrots, dried
peas, potassium chloride, VITAMINS [Vitamin E supplement, niacin (Vitamin B-3), Vitamin A supplement,
calcium pantothenate (Vitamin B-5), thiamine mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin B-12 supplement,
riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B-2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), folic acid (Vitamin B-9),
Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (Vitamin K), biotin (Vitamin B-7)],
MINERALS [zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by jilbert57 » 24 May 2021, 12:42

Hi Tony, since the food you are feeding has grains in it and the poop is good with the routine, you could try adding back in his regular diet but keep a good eye on the poop if it gets sloppy again. Most Epi pups do better with grain free, no pea or lentils as the grains can interfere with the efficacy if the enzymes.
Keep a good diary if you try that.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 24 May 2021, 14:42

Tony, it was my impression that his improvement came after you started the prescription food. I that right? The Purina One has poultry & grains, so like Jill said, write down what happens, and if all is well, then it seems like feeding it should be fine.

We often want our EPI doggos to eat grain-free, because grains might interfere with enzyme absorption, but every dog is different.

FYI, I am unable to feed Tucker the Canidae that the rest of my crew eats, because he cannot handle the grains. Please tell us how things go. I hope this isn't too confusing. --- Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

tlwright21
Member
Posts: 36
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: tony

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by tlwright21 » 25 May 2021, 12:05

his immediate improvement came after about 3-4 days on supplements. I was feeding him about 3/4 Purina One and 1/4 hill prescription diet id low fat that my vet prescribed. since then i have gradually increased the Hill prescription diet food and lowered the Purina One. he is getting about 3/4 tsp of enzyme power per cup full of food. His poop has not been as firm the past few days.

makes me think I should increase the enzymes, or back off the Hills Prescription diet.

also has anyone experience sloppy poop on the same day as the B12 shot? last week he was good then had the shot and later that day it was full blown diarrhea but good the next day, yesterday he had his shot and less than firm poop followed.

Now back to the food, yall are saying I want grain free and low fiber but not low fat?

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 May 2021, 13:59

Right, low fiber <4%, but fat is fed as to a normal dog. I use Sport Dog Elite for herding dogs. Sometimes Amazon has it, or Chewy, or direct from Sport Dog. It's $80.00 for 30 pounds, and Tucker eats 3 1/2 cups/day, which is more than the bag says to feed, but he lost weight when I followed their guidelines. Tucker also did well on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream, and it was cheaper, but he seemed to get tired of it.

When your dog reaches his ideal weight, you can taper off the food, until he's at the recommended amount. Some dogs even get a little plump, and they become members of the Chunky Monkey Club. Then you have to back off their food, which as you can imagine is SUCH a good feeling.

I am curious about the enzymes, because usually the ratio is 1 teaspoon enzymes/1 cup of food. What kind are you using? Have we talked to you about Enzyme Diane? If you are not giving enough enzymes, that could explain the loose poop.

And, forgive me but I can't remember if you are giving prebiotics or probiotics, Tylan or treating for SID in any way? I'm so sorry, but I don't know how to go back & read through your thread without losing my comments. ----Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

tlwright21
Member
Posts: 36
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: tony

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by tlwright21 » 25 May 2021, 16:32

primary vet said 1 tsp/ cup. but this is the same vet that didnt' diagnose EPI. (I asked about it 2 months later after he ran out of ideas and the dog had lost 20% weight). so may be he does need more. I'm giving him Covetrus Pancreatic Enzyme Powder. I asked another vet (backup vet) about switching powder and he discouraged me doing it (stay with what is working). He mentioned Tylan but backed off it. He said as long as he is not having diarrhea we should wait. Backup vet is much more competent but lives a very long ways away. not really accessible but will consult with me and prescribe meds. Its not an ideal situation. Jasper either has early EPI or possible lymphoma. Backup vet said he would ultrasound his gut if I want. he suspects lymphoma more than EPI but talked himself out if because his poop didn't improve when he was getting prednisone 2x daily and no enzymes. He is very practical. as long as the poop is firm then stay with what you are doing and adjust as necessary.

No pro or prebiotics either. Recommendations on either?

Also do dogs really get back to "normal"? is that a real expectation?

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 May 2021, 18:13

As Madelon said, it looks like you are heading toward EPI, so feeding the enzymes is a good idea. I would think a dog that had cancer would not be ravenous, so I'd stick with what your EPI vet says.

Also, really check out SID, which explains the gurgling belly. https://epi4dogs.com/sidsibo-management/ This is why the distant vet offered tylan. I use tylan for Tucker, but slippery elm (a prebiotic) also works for some dogs, and there is no prescription required. It is recommended to try slippery elm (Wonderlabs) before tylan, which is an antibiotic(a good one that doesn't mess up their gut). If slippery elm works, then you don't need tylan. Proviable is a probiotic that is recommended, but it has to be introduced gradually, or he'll get the runs.

Yes, you will develop a routine, your dog will gain his weight back, and you will find you have a new normal, which in my case means an extra five minutes, twice a day, preparing Tucker's food, remembering to order enzymes, tylan, B12, slippery elm, and it all just becomes part of life. Your doggy will be ok, and he will know how much you love him! --- Pam & Tucker

PS, we've been at this for two years. It took six months to get a diagnosis from an old-school vet, and we began treatment, but we didn't have the definitive bloodwork done until this spring. Tucker is stable, but sometimes SID flares up, and I have to give him a therapeutic round of tylan for 45 days. That is happening right now. But he has gained twenty pounds, and he is doing great. As you can see in my signature, I have upped his enzymes to 2 teaspoons per 1 3/4 cup food, as his need has increased slightly.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

tlwright21
Member
Posts: 36
Country: United States
State: Texas
Pet name: Jasper
My name: tony

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by tlwright21 » 25 May 2021, 19:22

the gurgling and passing gas stopped as soon as I got him on enzymes. so that is a positive

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1346
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 25 May 2021, 19:58

Oh! Well that's good. Maybe Jasper won't have to deal with SID, then.
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

User avatar
jilbert57
Staff
Posts: 2092
Country: United States
State: Washington

Re: EPI?? maybe yes, maybe no

Post by jilbert57 » 25 May 2021, 19:59

Yes that is a big PLUS!
Sounds like SID is resolving with the enzymes.

Jill
My name is Jill and we live on the Hood Canal in Washington State. We currently have 2 Jack russells, TJ is 8 and Sadie is 2.

Mickey and his pancreatitis brought me to Epi4dogs.com site in 2012 to help manage it.
He lived from 6/99 - 8/2014

Mickey, Jack Russell. Chronic Pancreatitis. Dianes enzymes, 1/8t 3x/day with meals.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 233 guests