2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 28 May 2021, 19:50

Hi Barb-thanks for your reply and input, its interesting you bring up the sedative as I truly think Im going to need to go that route as he nearly slipped his out of his harness in a parking lot 20 yards from a very busy road! He is my 4th GSD and I cannot get over his activity level as he is SO high strung. He is due to be neutered next month as he will be 2 so Im hoping this has some effect. I hate to so him get so stressed so Im going to discuss with Vet.

I received a text today from the clinic indicating his fecal was Giardia and parasite free! This was a relief to me as I did not want him back on metro yet again. Picking up his meds tomorrow and am hoping to talk to Vet regarding enzyme treatment. He continues to eat like a horse and lives to play ball-I added some of the canned Hills to his dry food to see if can add some calories. Again thanks Barb and everyone for your input, I feel so much better about him thanks to this forum as I have such horrible anxiety about him as the loss of my old boy Maxx is still relatively fresh. Enjoy your weekend!

Barb
Staff
Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Barb » 29 May 2021, 12:22

Glad to hear that the giardia and parasite tests came back negative.

I am sorry to hear about Maxx and know that this increases your concern about Gunther. We lost Kolby to an aggressive form of cancer a little over a year ago and still miss him. But he was with us for almost 11 years, thriving even with EPI for 10 of them. Before him was Kip, who developed Degenerative Myelopathy in his 111th year. And now Madison. All German Shepherds, each very unique, each of them teaching us more than we taught them, and each giving us gifts we never thought to ask for.

You are doing a great job with Gunther. Hang in there.

Barb

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Madelon
Staff
Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Madelon » 31 May 2021, 22:26

Hi and welcome to our EPI family! Just a little back story on my GSD, Doc - he was diagnosed at 3 mos old with a HORRIBLE case of coccidia - took two rounds of antibiotics to clear it, and had a bladder infection - then he was tested for EPI due to the diarrhea was diagnosed with SID (small intestinal dysbiosis) - his TLI was 16 and his Cobalimin (B12) was 800 - he was treated with metronidazole and he was fine and went on to be 95lbs at 10mos old. He then slowly started to lose weight - at 13mos he had lost 20lbs was eating his poop, socks, paper - I had him rested and this time he was positive for EPI - his TLI was less than .4 and his B12 was 406. SO While your dog is not clinically EPI - with the low B12 and on the high side of Folate I would definitely treat as SID with a 45 day course of Tylan and SLOWLY wean off - GSD are prone to SID and hopefully that's all this is. BUT if he does better after treatment and then you see the symptoms recur I would treat as if EPI and get the EPI test done again. It takes time for the pancreas to atrophy so like me, when you first tested the pancreas could be functioning enough but your dog could still develop full blown EPI.

Hang in there - either way we will help guide you.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 01 Jun 2021, 09:50

Thanks Barb-sorry to hear about Kolby and you other pups, I lost Maxx to DM and its such a tough thing to see them slowly deteriorate. Thanks for your encouragement.

Thanks for your input Madelon-Im waiting for the Vet to contact me today and am going to ask her about the enzymes and the tylan. Will update accordingly after I speak with them today. Gunny has been doing great eating wise and his stool is so much better however he is still ravenous 24/7 and must be monitored constantly for eating things he shouldn't. Again thank you all for your help!

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 01 Jun 2021, 12:55

William---

I am again reminded of how Tucker was, in years past, eating weird stuff, poop being the least weird. He was treated for two years before I could afford the Texas A&M test, so I have no idea what his numbers would have been when he was younger. I didn't pursue EPI until he was almost 5, because my vet had so many reasons for his bones sticking out & his eating habits. He didn't develop the yellow mounds of oily diarrhea until he was 4 1/2 and ate thirteen cupcakes on Christmas Eve. Later, I came across a shepherd rescue post that piqued my curiosity, and we proceeded from there.

BUT, he was always skinny like Gunther. A good thing to know is, taking the enzymes will not affect any TLI testing you may do in the future, as the enzymes do not enter the blood. They just stay in there with the food, and do their thing. So, if your vet is agreeable, you can start the enzymes & see if he seems less hungry. If he is sub-SEPI (?), he may be eating all those things because he feels like he is starving. I know that's hard to hear.

Keep in touch---Pam
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 01 Jun 2021, 19:29

Hello everybody and thanks for your input Pam-I actually spoke to the lead Vet today regarding Gunny and his inability to gain weight. She doesnt think giving him enzymes is a good idea without him actually being diagnosed with EPI. She was however onboard with trying Tylan for 45 days and giving him B12 supplementation. She said he could get injections of B12 however I seem to recall one of you guys providing a link for B12 in a pill form? That sounds like it would be much easier for Gunny as the vet inspires pure terror in him. She also agreed he should be retested for EPI down the road.

As you guys indicated I can get enzymes without a script so Im certainly not ruling it out as I just want Gun to gain weight. Do you guys think I should just try the Tylan/B12 and see what happens? He is really doing great stool wise since the food switch (have added canned version this week as well) but just wont gain weight and is insatiable. He is also going to be neutered this month as he turns 2 next week-have read this can slow metabolism down and weight gain is possible? As always thanks so much for your help-take care!

Tuckaboo Pam
Member
Posts: 1345
Country: United States
State: Florida
Pet name: Tucker
My name: Pam H.

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Tuckaboo Pam » 02 Jun 2021, 14:42

William---

I think you should listen to your vet, but also listen to your gut.

Here is the link for B12---
https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688
I buy mine on amazon because it's easier for me.

If the Tylan & B12 doesn't help, then maybe get a second opinion. There is a list of knowledgeable vets somewhere on EPI4Dogs, but I can't find it, sorry!

Early on in my journey, I found this awesome video, and it helped me ----
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/h ... -dogs.aspx

And, finally---I wonder if somebody on staff could jump in & say whether or not this is good advice? ---

This is an elimination test, and while you probably don't want to use it right away, with Gunther's TLI score, maybe in a couple of months you could use this to see if he is positive yet. https://enzymediane.com/product/schebo- ... nine-test/

It is not precise, but it does tell you if he does NOT have EPI. I suggest this because it is $62.00, and he doesn't have to fast. You just scoop a little fresh poopoo into a small vial & send it off. I would use it if he continues to lose weight. Your situation is a little frustrating because I trust the research on this site, and the research says it won't hurt to give enzymes for a little while. You can otherwise get into a lot of expensive testing.

Somebody on staff will tell me if I'm overstepping here!

---Pam & Tucker
Tucker was a shepherd/lab mix--- TLI 1.3, Folate 9.7, Cobalamin 666, Lipase 38. Took Diane's Enzymes 4 teaspoons/day, Wonderlabs B12 one capsule per day, and Tylan 1/16 teaspoon/ morning (to hold SID at bay). Taste of the Wild High Prairie, 1 1/2 cups/day, with a total of 4 cups of Fresh Pet. Stopped eating everything in sight, and went from 60 to 85 pounds! Tucker was my boyfriend, and my husband was OK with that. Tucker succumbed to hemangiosarcoma, but we cherished every day we had with that wonderful, beautiful boy. I will always, always miss my sweet big boy.

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 02 Jun 2021, 16:43

Thanks Pam! Im going to pick his meds up tomorrow and agree with you on the gut. I do like and respect the Vet however they have gotten SO busy since the pandemic it sometimes seems like they dont have the time to be as thorough as they once were.

Thanks for all the links Pam, will order the B12 tonight and hopefully get him rolling in the next few days. Im definitely going to get him retested down the road, really hoping just the Tylan/B12 does the trick but will do whatever it takes. Thanks again Pam-going to check out video

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Jean
Forum Director
Posts: 1707
Location: South Liverpool
Country: United Kingdom - England
Pet name: Kara, lost 10th May 2019
My name: Jean

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by Jean » 04 Jun 2021, 04:50

Good morning from the UK

Firstly I empathise on losing a dog to DM, I lost my Kara to the horrible condition

She was always slim as a puppy, but as time went on she became beyond thin, and at 14 months old was 39 pounds and a mess, It is imperitive that you supplement B12 no matter what

https://www.petmd.com/dog/wellness/evr_ ... py_for_epi

We have always given b12 injections to our Shepherds as they always have strange digestive systems, and auto immune issues

Metro is one thing I refused to give, and our vets were very reluctant to prescribe due to neurological effects which can be dealt with by giving Valium, not something you have in your medicine cabinet, but my vets gave us two tablets IF they precribed Metro

I would be tempted as said before to ask Enzyme Diane for a trial bag, she is great to deal with, has the vet done a stool sample test for undigested food, and i am sure you have tested for worms

having had a lifelong problem with Kara's intolerances over foods I have researched them and it appears that some proteins are "hot" this is a relatively easy site to read

https://www.volharddognutrition.com/ene ... -balanced/

However, she was blood tested for intolerances and it came back that the only protein she could tolerate was lamb and duck, she could never tolerate chicken or its derivitives, i.e. poultry fat which is mainly chicken

can you just remind us of what you are feeding , you might want to think about giving 50% over and above what the advice on the food bag for the weight the dog SHOULD be, over maybe a few meals a day, if you use enzymes then all meals should be enzymed to 1 level teaspoon per 1 cup of kibble, the enzymes need to be incubated in warm water or broth, with the kibble for maybe 20 mins and fed

I wish you luck. and elimination diet is very soul destroying

you might also want to look at this

https://hemopet.org/nutriscan/

could be cheaper than testing loads of foods

but ask your vet


Jean
My name is Jean we live in Liverpool in Uk

I am the Forum Director which I am very proud of

My Kara born 21 July 2009 diagnosed with EPI by cTLI test August 2010 TLI = <1...folate 14 Cobalamin 408, shot down to 94, b12 injections every other day

Lowest weight 39 pounds

We used Panzym enzymes, Tylan and Chemeyes b12 capsules

Sadly, on 10th May 2019, we lost her to DM


Jeanx

dryseeker
Member
Posts: 10
Country: United States
State: Missouri
Pet name: Gunther
My name: WILLIAM

Re: 2 Year old GSD not gaining weight

Post by dryseeker » 04 Jun 2021, 20:14

Hi Jean, thanks for your thoughts and Im very sorry to hear about Kara and the DM. Maxx passed from it in July of 2019 and it really is horrible to see it progress. Dark days............

I have been feeding Gunther 50% over spread thru 4 meals a day. He is currently on Hills Biome dry and canned food which is what the Vet recommended back in March, though I was skeptical the improvement in his stool has been amazing as he hasnt had any loose stool and it also seems to have helped with stomach gas. His stool is usually well formed however it is sometimes greasy and has a greyish color to it. I need to look into changing his diet down the road but this is the longest he has went without upset stomach/diarrhea since I have owned him.

He is really a happy crazy 2 year old thats lives for long walks and ball chasing and seems to feel great. I am starting him on wonderlabs B12 and tylan tomorrow and am hoping he starts to gain weight as he appears to be holding steady . As my vet was against the enzymes without definitive EPI diagnosis I guess I will hold off for the time being. Going to start research getting him on a better diet-thanks again everyone for the links and please keep the advice coming-much appreciated!

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